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What do you guys think about the immigration bill?
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DBWS08
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:47 am    Post subject: What do you guys think about the immigration bill? Reply with quote

I'm away from home in Seattle and wondering about the reactions to the immigration bill that Governor Brewer's just signed. My dad and his golf buddies were all pissed off about Obama slamming the bill, they all thought he really shouldn't butt in, I guess very seldom did presidents interfere with a state affair.

I don't know what to think, on the one hand, I could understand the Hispanics worrying about being profiled, but on the other hand, what's the big deal if asked to show papers, everyone shows his ID to get on a plane and everyone has to carry registrations in the car, right? What do you guys think?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has the potential to be a good bill, or the potential to open up the state and local jurisdictions to numerous "racial profiling" lawsuits. I'm going to take a wait-and-see approach.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The feds need to pass Sen. John McCain legislation introduced a few years back.

The Dems will go for it. The Rep will think its the end of the world. JD will wet himself. Tea Partiers will go crazy.

Sorry I usually dont discuss politics its one of my rules. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I was seeing things... Laughing
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

B. O. N. D. wrote:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm afraid to leave home without my papers for fear I'll end up back in Wales.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think its a bad bill.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About time.

It's no different from being asked for ID when you buy alcohol, and no-one gets their panties in a bunch over that.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZ SnakePit wrote:
About time.

It's no different from being asked for ID when you buy alcohol, and no-one gets their panties in a bunch over that.


Justin gets really upset when asked for ID at Chase.

Seriously though there is a difference. This bill in my opinion will not change anything for the better.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prosopis wrote:
AZ SnakePit wrote:
About time.

It's no different from being asked for ID when you buy alcohol, and no-one gets their panties in a bunch over that.


Justin gets really upset when asked for ID at Chase.

Seriously though there is a difference. This bill in my opinion will not change anything for the better.

Actually, I was asked my ID at Chase last night. Took it as a compliment, pointing out to the guy proudly that SnakePit Jr. is old enough to buy alcohol... Laughing

Yeah, obviously it's not quite the same, but in both cases, you need to prove your eligibility for a restricted right [living in the US/buying alcohol] in order to exercise it. I'm perfectly fine with that. Seems the only people who need to be concerned are those who shouldn't be here, and their enablers.
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deweyniner
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prosopis wrote:
AZ SnakePit wrote:
About time.

It's no different from being asked for ID when you buy alcohol, and no-one gets their panties in a bunch over that.


Justin gets really upset when asked for ID at Chase.

Seriously though there is a difference. This bill in my opinion will not change anything for the better.


Getting profiled by race is the same as being profiled for age. So to me it's almost identical.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deweyniner wrote:
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf

Quote:
A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY... A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.

Well, that's phenomenally taxing, isn't it? Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This law is a bullshit feel good proposal for those virulently anti-immigrant. The real shame of it is that it will take attention away from what we could do to make the situation better. Resolving the h-1b situation, securing our border, and wholesale reformation of our immigration policies.

We need to put the CEO of Wal-Mart or Bobs Lawn Service LLC in prison for intentionally and repeatedly hiring illegals. That would do more to prevent illegals then forming a police state to randomly check everyone name Jose or Maria.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

baldmaga wrote:
Prosopis wrote:
AZ SnakePit wrote:
About time.

It's no different from being asked for ID when you buy alcohol, and no-one gets their panties in a bunch over that.


Justin gets really upset when asked for ID at Chase.

Seriously though there is a difference. This bill in my opinion will not change anything for the better.


Getting profiled by race is the same as being profiled for age. So to me it's almost identical.


There is a difference. I am at a loss for words to explain the difference Embarassed I do know there is a difference. Maybe it is the intentions of it? I know that is not right but it is all I can come up with. To me there is a difference in being asked to present an id to prove I am old enough to have a beer and being asked to present an id to prove I am not a dirty illegal alien because of the way I talk or look.
When I am asked for an id to buy alcohol I feel much like snakepit did. I chuckle about it and I may even feel good about it. I would not have those same feelings if I was asked for an id because I have a nice tan and I am wearing a Virgin of Guadalupe t shirt.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: What do you guys think about the immigration bill? Reply with quote

DBWS08 wrote:
I'm away from home in Seattle and wondering about the reactions to the immigration bill that Governor Brewer's just signed. My dad and his golf buddies were all pissed off about Obama slamming the bill, they all thought he really shouldn't butt in, I guess very seldom did presidents interfere with a state affair.

I don't know what to think, on the one hand, I could understand the Hispanics worrying about being profiled, but on the other hand, what's the big deal if asked to show papers, everyone shows his ID to get on a plane and everyone has to carry registrations in the car, right? What do you guys think?


I think the big deal is that unless there is probable cause to think you violated the law, the police cannot Constitutionally bother you and force you to prove you have not committed a crime. The law is unconsitutional on its face.

A person should not have to worry about forgetting his passport for fear of being arrested in his own country for the crime of being brown.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZ SnakePit wrote:
Prosopis wrote:
AZ SnakePit wrote:
About time.

It's no different from being asked for ID when you buy alcohol, and no-one gets their panties in a bunch over that.


Justin gets really upset when asked for ID at Chase.

Seriously though there is a difference. This bill in my opinion will not change anything for the better.

Actually, I was asked my ID at Chase last night. Took it as a compliment, pointing out to the guy proudly that SnakePit Jr. is old enough to buy alcohol... Laughing

Yeah, obviously it's not quite the same, but in both cases, you need to prove your eligibility for a restricted right [living in the US/buying alcohol] in order to exercise it. I'm perfectly fine with that. Seems the only people who need to be concerned are those who shouldn't be here, and their enablers.


The only people who need to worry about it are Brown people who shouldn't be here. You, as a Brit, will not be bothered. Nobody cares if you have a green card. Thus, it is easy for whites and blacks to say, what's the big deal, but for the local Hispanic guy who perhaps doesn't speak English but is still an American citizen, if he wanders away from home without his passport, he is likely to find himself in jail.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me if you want to live somewhere where the Government looks over your shoulders all the time, you should go live in Europe or some other socialist/totalitarian hellhole.

In the US, we should take pride in our Constitutional right to be left alone. Misguided fear of a new culture mixing with the existing culture should not be an excuse to chuck Constitutional rights to make us feel better that we got that sucker who braved death to cross the border in an effort to take a shitty job that noneless will better his life.

To the extent people talk about the kidnapping and violence associated with illegals, the fact is that that comes from the drug war, and it isn't going away just because of this bill. If you want that to stop, legalize drugs and take away the incentive for people

Illegals come because they have shitty lives at home and because there are jobs here for them to do. They benefit, and we benefit. Thus, the solution is to make it easy for them to come work legally, so they can come and go as needed or desired, and we can keep track of who is here.

The ones that are here are not going away just because every brown person gets the privilege of being further harrassed by the cops because they look and sound different from "real Americans."
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said Hank.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hank wrote:

The only people who need to worry about it are Brown people who shouldn't be here. You, as a Brit, will not be bothered. Nobody cares if you have a green card. Thus, it is easy for whites and blacks to say, what's the big deal, but for the local Hispanic guy who perhaps doesn't speak English but is still an American citizen, if he wanders away from home without his passport, he is likely to find himself in jail.


Exactly!

Since this country prides itself on "freedom" and "justice," I'll be shocked if this law ever makes it through the court system.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Must stay away from this thread. Confused

The late great Edward Abbey wrote "Immigration and Liberal Taboos" five years ago. It all still applies today.

http://towncriernews.blogspot.com/2005/12/edward-abbey-immigration-and-liberal.html
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

B. O. N. D. wrote:


Damn skippy! Next thing you know those nazi bastards are gonna be asking for us to show them our healthcare insurance cards. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hank wrote:
For the local Hispanic guy who perhaps doesn't speak English but is still an American citizen, if he wanders away from home without his passport, he is likely to find himself in jail.

Sigh, The fearmongering continues apace... Let's see if this happens with the frequency you expect when enforcement starts, shall we? Then you can start whining.

In addition, let's say I am a law-abiding citizen in circumstances which bring me to the attention of the police - say, who just happens to be walking with a large bag of cash, on the same block as a bank which just got robbed. If I am unlucky enough to have absolutely no means of proving my identity, then frankly, I would not expect to be allowed to go on my merry way by the cops, regardless of my skin color.

Hank wrote:
It seems to me if you want to live somewhere where the Government looks over your shoulders all the time, you should go live in Europe or some other socialist/totalitarian hellhole.

Except when you want the government to provide healthcare for all, right? But I'm most amused how a simple verification that you aren't breaking the law turns the country into a "socialist/totalitarian hellhole".

Hank wrote:
In the US, we should take pride in our Constitutional right to be left alone.

Sorry, must have missed that part in the Bill of Rights...

Hank wrote:
Misguided fear of a new culture mixing with the existing culture should not be an excuse to chuck Constitutional rights to make us feel better that we got that sucker who braved death to cross the border in an effort to take a shitty job that noneless will better his life.

1) Most illegal immigrants do not walk from Nogales to Phoenix. Far more come on legitimate visas and just don't bother to go back. Hardly"braving death."
2) So, you agree that illegal immigrants break the law, simply in order that they can make more money. Pardon me if I don't find personal greed an acceptable excuse for breaking the law: you'll find most drug dealers want to "better their lives" as well.

Hank wrote:
The ones that are here are not going away just because every brown person gets the privilege of being further harrassed by the cops because they look and sound different from "real Americans."

OMG! These poor "brown people"! Asked [gasp!] to show their driving license! My god, what infamous tortures will we inflict on them next! As someone who played by the rules, jumped through the hoops, and made the effort to acquire legal status, I have absolutely no sympathy for those who decided the laws of the land didn't apply to them, and they should come here anyway.

We all suffer far worse intrusions on our personal liberty, for example, each and every time you fly. Last time I went through Sky Harbor, I had my hands swabbed to check for explosives. Where were the thousands protesting at the Capitol for that completely unjustified "harassment"? In reality, any annoyance I felt was directed entirely at the lawbreakers who made such precautions necessary.

That should be the case here, for every legal resident of the US. The gutless behavior of both political parties - one run by big business, the other beholden to Utopian conceits of no relevance in the real world - certainly hasn't helped, but the cause of the problem we currently have is not Janet Brewer, Joe Arpaio or Russell Pearce. They're not the ones breaking the law, and making measures such as this one necessary.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZ SnakePit wrote:
Hank wrote:
For the local Hispanic guy who perhaps doesn't speak English but is still an American citizen, if he wanders away from home without his passport, he is likely to find himself in jail.

Sigh, The fearmongering continues apace... Let's see if this happens with the frequency you expect when enforcement starts, shall we? Then you can start whining.

Hank wrote:
It seems to me if you want to live somewhere where the Government looks over your shoulders all the time, you should go live in Europe or some other socialist/totalitarian hellhole.

Except when you want the government to provide healthcare for all, right? But I'm most amused how a simple verification that you are not breaking the law turns the country into a "socialist/totalitarian hellhole".

Hank wrote:
In the US, we should take pride in our Constitutional right to be left alone.

Sorry, must have missed that part in the Bill of Rights...

Hank wrote:
Misguided fear of a new culture mixing with the existing culture should not be an excuse to chuck Constitutional rights to make us feel better that we got that sucker who braved death to cross the border in an effort to take a shitty job that noneless will better his life.

1) Most illegal immigrants do not walk from Nogales to Phoenix. Far more come on legitimate visas and just don't bother to go back. Hardly"braving death."
2) So, you agree that illegal immigrants break the law, simply in order that they can make more money. Pardon me if I don't find personal greed an acceptable excuse for breaking the law: you'll find most drug dealers want to "better their lives" as well.

Hank wrote:
The ones that are here are not going away just because every brown person gets the privilege of being further harrassed by the cops because they look and sound different from "real Americans."

OMG! These poor "brown people"! Asked [gasp!] to show their driving license! My god, what infamous tortures will we inflict on them next! As someone who played by the rules, jumped through the hoops, and made the effort to acquire legal status, I have absolutely no sympathy for those who decided the laws of the land didn't apply to them, and they should come here anyway.

We all suffer far worse intrusions on our personal liberty, for example, each and every time you fly. Last time I went through Sky Harbor, I had my hands swabbed to check for explosives. Where were the thousands protesting at the Capitol for that completely unjustified "harassment"? In reality, any annoyance I felt was directed entirely at the lawbreakers who made such precautions necessary.

That should be the case here, for every legal resident of the US. The gutless behavior of both political parties - one run by big business, the other beholden to Utopian conceits of no relevance in the real world - certainly hasn't helped, but the cause of the problem we currently have is not Janet Brewer, Joe Arpaio or Russell Pearce. They're not the ones breaking the law, and making measures such as this one necessary.


I spent page after page saying that I thought the Health Care Reform was corporatist bullshit of the highest order. This is a separate issue, although the principles are the same. The Government should stay the hell out of our lives to the maximum extent possible. I'm sure you read the thread, but perhaps my arguments were a bit over your head.

Forgive me if my caring about the Constitutional rights of people in this country (citizens and non) is "whining." Based on your past posts of most topics, I know your general outlook is fuck it, I got mine, so if you don't sleep with the same gender I prefer, don't have the same green card I have, etc., you can all go to hell. I will take my rather more principled outlook on life and leave you to drag your knuckles across whatever ground you sully.

Oh, and by the way, your driver's license is not proof of citizenship. If you do not have a passport, a green card, or your birth certificate on you, then you have no proof of citizenship on your person.

And true, we don't know how it is going to be enforced. The law does not give the police the power to stop people just for the hell of it, but only on reasonable suspicion. One wonders how one can have a reasonable suspicion that a person is an illegal immigrant. Does it take an informant? Does a person need to look sufficiently Mexican? The law, if followed, is essentially impossible to enforce. Thus, the law is either purely symbolic or it is going to be used to illegally harass people.

As for the right to be left alone, leave us begin with the Fourth Amendment (I know you are neither an American nor a lawyer, so perhaps I should go slowly).

The Fourth Amendment states:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The right to not be sujected to unreasonble searches and seizures is the right to be left alone. The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment has been ruled to incorporate these prohibitions against the states. Thus, a person can generally be stopped only if there is probable cause to do so. It is blatantly unconstitutional for a cop to stop somebody and ask them to produce paperwork merely because they are out and about. The standard enunciated in the law, "reasonable suspicion", is less stringent than probable cause. Random checks of people walking down the street would certainly be disallowed (car stops are permitted under a different line of reasoning that would not apply if a person is not in a car).

Thus, yes, we generally have a constitutional right to be left alone. The right event applies to people in the country illegally, since the Constitution applies to everybody inside the US, citizen or not, legal alien or not.

People can reasonably disagree about whether there is an illegal alien problem (I favor open borders, so I don't think we have such a problem). Even if one would like to see greater enforcement of immigration law and tighter borders (and I can see how certain British immigrants might be excepted from my open border preferences), I would hope people would not desire to further trample the constitution to enact their personal preferences and would seek out realistic solutions that are the least intrusive to personal liberty possible.
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