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HCR bill passes
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Prosopis
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

levski wrote:
Prosopis wrote:
levski wrote:
Hank wrote:


Additionally, believe it or not, there are people like me who do not see this move as for the greater good. Although I know you will not agree with us, you should try to understand that people can have principled disagreements as to whether the country will be better off with this program. Time will bear out who is right, but assuming bad faith on the part of those who think a different way of organizing health care delivery is best is, to me, small minded and a bad way to engage the issue.


Well said. And point well taken.

Ultimately, I feel that everyone should have a right to universal health care, just like I feel that everyone should have a right to education, and to liberty, pursuit of happiness, yada yada yada - including the right to bear arms. If the people writing the Constitution were a bit smarter, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.... Laughing

Including the unborn?



Does the unborn have a right to bear arms?

If they could bear arms I would not have to work so hard to defend them. They could do it themselves. I would be ok with a baby going ninja on some asshole trying to scramble his brains. Actually that would be awesome.
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Prosopis
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

levski wrote:
TAP wrote:
CNN.com tonight wrote:
President Obama will sign an executive order Wednesday that ensures that existing limits on the federal funding of abortion remain in place under the new health care overhaul law.


Prosopis doesn't believe this. Just more shitty left wing propaganda.

We all know secretly the POTUS will be ordering the death of Palin's child.

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2010/03/obama-signs-order-re-affirming-ban-on-federal-funds-for-abortion/1?loc=interstitialskip

This is a nice start but there are still loop holes that need to be closed. We will continue to work on it.
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Prosopis
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deweyniner wrote:
I know this link is a little old, but it doesn't bode well for HSAs.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/14/smallbusiness/health_savings_account_HSA_reform/index.htm

These seemed like the way to go, before.


This is what I have done in the past. I will miss my HSA if it goes away.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prosopis wrote:
This is a nice start but there are still loop holes that need to be closed. We will continue to work on it.

Dingell vowed this week to fight Obama's executive order.
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Driaz
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

matt wrote:
Proof that GOP opposition to health care is more about making the Democrats look bad:

CBS News wrote:
Republicans on Tuesday rolled out all of the obstructionist tactics they promised as the Senate kicked off its final health care showdown, beginning 20 hours of debate on the reconciliation bill meant to amend the comprehensive legislation signed into law on Tuesday. GOP tactics to stall the measure included introducing headline-grabbing amendments to the bill (like a proposal to prohibit Viagra coverage for sex offenders), and blocking Senate business on issues unrelated to health care.


They pissed and moaned about the deals in the Senate bill and now they want to do everything they can to disrupt the Reconciliation Bill that will fix those portions of the bill.

At this point they are just pouting.



I'm not exactly happy with the Republicans, but considering they were cut off at the knees, what the hell did you expect them to do? The D's cut them out of the debate early on. When the bill is going to be debated in private by D's and they won't even be open with the press about what they are doing until after the bill passes something is wrong.

Imagine the R's locked out the D's to create the legislation to privatize social securtity. No D's would be allowed into the room to construct the legislation. D's concerns were never heard because the R's have the majority and they'll do what they damn well want to. Then, even though the R's had total control, they still had to get their moderates on board, so they engaged in all sorts of political "persuasion" to get their own party's moderates on board. The D's ultimately obstructed social security reform by being the party of no and philibustering. One mans obstructionist is another mans patriotic dissent to majority rule.
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levski
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prosopis wrote:


If they could bear arms I would not have to work so hard to defend them. They could do it themselves. I would be ok with a baby going ninja on some asshole trying to scramble his brains. Actually that would be awesome.


You have some serious issues.
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stu
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Driaz wrote:
matt wrote:
Proof that GOP opposition to health care is more about making the Democrats look bad:

CBS News wrote:
Republicans on Tuesday rolled out all of the obstructionist tactics they promised as the Senate kicked off its final health care showdown, beginning 20 hours of debate on the reconciliation bill meant to amend the comprehensive legislation signed into law on Tuesday. GOP tactics to stall the measure included introducing headline-grabbing amendments to the bill (like a proposal to prohibit Viagra coverage for sex offenders), and blocking Senate business on issues unrelated to health care.


They pissed and moaned about the deals in the Senate bill and now they want to do everything they can to disrupt the Reconciliation Bill that will fix those portions of the bill.

At this point they are just pouting.



I'm not exactly happy with the Republicans, but considering they were cut off at the knees, what the hell did you expect them to do? The D's cut them out of the debate early on. When the bill is going to be debated in private by D's and they won't even be open with the press about what they are doing until after the bill passes something is wrong.

Imagine the R's locked out the D's to create the legislation to privatize social securtity. No D's would be allowed into the room to construct the legislation. D's concerns were never heard because the R's have the majority and they'll do what they damn well want to. Then, even though the R's had total control, they still had to get their moderates on board, so they engaged in all sorts of political "persuasion" to get their own party's moderates on board. The D's ultimately obstructed social security reform by being the party of no and philibustering. One mans obstructionist is another mans patriotic dissent to majority rule.


1993?
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matt
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Driaz wrote:
I'm not exactly happy with the Republicans, but considering they were cut off at the knees, what the hell did you expect them to do?


Act like adults for once?
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THE SHADOW
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rule #1 never talk politics, Religion or Abortion with people. Why that stuff is personal and your not going to change peoples minds. Waste of time.

But I have to say with the Daily Show and Colbert Report in reruns this week reading this thread has been almost as good. Laughing Wink
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Driaz
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stu wrote:
Driaz wrote:
matt wrote:
Proof that GOP opposition to health care is more about making the Democrats look bad:

CBS News wrote:
Republicans on Tuesday rolled out all of the obstructionist tactics they promised as the Senate kicked off its final health care showdown, beginning 20 hours of debate on the reconciliation bill meant to amend the comprehensive legislation signed into law on Tuesday. GOP tactics to stall the measure included introducing headline-grabbing amendments to the bill (like a proposal to prohibit Viagra coverage for sex offenders), and blocking Senate business on issues unrelated to health care.


They pissed and moaned about the deals in the Senate bill and now they want to do everything they can to disrupt the Reconciliation Bill that will fix those portions of the bill.

At this point they are just pouting.



I'm not exactly happy with the Republicans, but considering they were cut off at the knees, what the hell did you expect them to do? The D's cut them out of the debate early on. When the bill is going to be debated in private by D's and they won't even be open with the press about what they are doing until after the bill passes something is wrong.

Imagine the R's locked out the D's to create the legislation to privatize social securtity. No D's would be allowed into the room to construct the legislation. D's concerns were never heard because the R's have the majority and they'll do what they damn well want to. Then, even though the R's had total control, they still had to get their moderates on board, so they engaged in all sorts of political "persuasion" to get their own party's moderates on board. The D's ultimately obstructed social security reform by being the party of no and philibustering. One mans obstructionist is another mans patriotic dissent to majority rule.


1993?


With such a short statement/question, you sure do leave me lots of room to assume a good deal about what you are after? (That's never a good thing. Laughing )

If your point is that because R's were against a particular healthcare reform in 1993 that it follows that they should be blocked from having any legislative input into any future bills to reform healthcare I'd have to respectfully disagree. I don't believe that is how the legislative branch of our government is supposed to work, and I would presume the majority of people if you remove a specific instance of it happening by their party or to their party would agree with me.

When the R's inevitably employ a similar dubious tactic to pass legislation the D's strongly oppose, the D's will whine and cry foul and the R's will defend their actions by pointing out the D's did it to pass healthcare reform. It just goes on and on and our legislative body becomes more and more polarized by the extremes of each party. I'm not trying to claim it's only the D's. Both parties have been doing it and pushing the envelope further and further with how to get legislation through the minority party's objections. I guess if you don't allow the minority party to even engage in the debate, it makes dealing with their objections easier. Laughing
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levski
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Driaz wrote:
I'm not exactly happy with the Republicans, but considering they were cut off at the knees, what the hell did you expect them to do?


Drag their balls on the asphalt and call each other "Sparky"?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/frum-forced-out-at-conservative-institute/?hp

Quote:
Updated: Over the past week, David Frum, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative research organization, has emerged as one of the leading critics of the way Republicans dealt with President Obama’s health care bill.

The party, Mr. Frum said, put politics over policy in trying to damage Mr. Obama’s agenda, and lost both the political battle and the ability to influence a key piece of legislation. In a column Mr. Frum posted at the FrumForum, he wrote that the House passage of the health care bill had become the Republicans’ “Waterloo,” rather than Mr. Obama’s, as a leading G.O.P. senator had once warned.

As of Thursday, Mr. Frum had become a former fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.



Oh yeah, that'll make the Republicans look like winners!
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Prosopis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THE SHADOW wrote:
Rule #1 never talk politics, Religion or Abortion with people. Why that stuff is personal and your not going to change peoples minds. Waste of time.

But I have to say with the Daily Show and Colbert Report in reruns this week reading this thread has been almost as good. Laughing Wink


Colbert has been good this week. Laughing
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Prosopis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

levski wrote:
Prosopis wrote:


If they could bear arms I would not have to work so hard to defend them. They could do it themselves. I would be ok with a baby going ninja on some asshole trying to scramble his brains. Actually that would be awesome.


You have some serious issues.

You have no idea.
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stu
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Driaz wrote:
stu wrote:
Driaz wrote:
matt wrote:
Proof that GOP opposition to health care is more about making the Democrats look bad:

CBS News wrote:
Republicans on Tuesday rolled out all of the obstructionist tactics they promised as the Senate kicked off its final health care showdown, beginning 20 hours of debate on the reconciliation bill meant to amend the comprehensive legislation signed into law on Tuesday. GOP tactics to stall the measure included introducing headline-grabbing amendments to the bill (like a proposal to prohibit Viagra coverage for sex offenders), and blocking Senate business on issues unrelated to health care.


They pissed and moaned about the deals in the Senate bill and now they want to do everything they can to disrupt the Reconciliation Bill that will fix those portions of the bill.

At this point they are just pouting.



I'm not exactly happy with the Republicans, but considering they were cut off at the knees, what the hell did you expect them to do? The D's cut them out of the debate early on. When the bill is going to be debated in private by D's and they won't even be open with the press about what they are doing until after the bill passes something is wrong.

Imagine the R's locked out the D's to create the legislation to privatize social securtity. No D's would be allowed into the room to construct the legislation. D's concerns were never heard because the R's have the majority and they'll do what they damn well want to. Then, even though the R's had total control, they still had to get their moderates on board, so they engaged in all sorts of political "persuasion" to get their own party's moderates on board. The D's ultimately obstructed social security reform by being the party of no and philibustering. One mans obstructionist is another mans patriotic dissent to majority rule.


1993?


With such a short statement/question, you sure do leave me lots of room to assume a good deal about what you are after? (That's never a good thing. Laughing )

If your point is that because R's were against a particular healthcare reform in 1993 that it follows that they should be blocked from having any legislative input into any future bills to reform healthcare I'd have to respectfully disagree. I don't believe that is how the legislative branch of our government is supposed to work, and I would presume the majority of people if you remove a specific instance of it happening by their party or to their party would agree with me.

When the R's inevitably employ a similar dubious tactic to pass legislation the D's strongly oppose, the D's will whine and cry foul and the R's will defend their actions by pointing out the D's did it to pass healthcare reform. It just goes on and on and our legislative body becomes more and more polarized by the extremes of each party. I'm not trying to claim it's only the D's. Both parties have been doing it and pushing the envelope further and further with how to get legislation through the minority party's objections. I guess if you don't allow the minority party to even engage in the debate, it makes dealing with their objections easier. Laughing


Health reform has been an issue from before 1993. The Democrats have made it a pressing issue since then The Republicans really wanted some input (other than just delaying the reform) they have had plenty of time. When their purpose of obfuscation and delay became too much, the Democrats took matters into their own hands.

We see this clearly in the fix it bills with amendments being offered for delay only. If the Republicans want to play the game of delay that they have for years, fine; but at some point it is appropriate to say that they are never going to cooperate or negotiate in good faith and get a needed reform passed.

We saw this with Civil Rights, Medicare and numerous other social program. Then a number of southern Democrats also engaged in the obstruction and a number of liberal Republicans assisted; but those southern Democrats are now Republicans and the liberal Republicans Democrats.

In short, there has been plenty of debate over decades and at some point you just need to shut up and vote.
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levski
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nicely said, Stu. The latest Republican stupidity in the Senate was nothing more than posturing. In fact, here's a video of the Republicans trying to make a point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno

Btw, the House has just sent the POTUS the bill with fixes
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing the Senate did (again, with Democrats supporting the bill and Republicans voting against):

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/us/politics/26loans.html?hp

Quote:
Ending one of the fiercest lobbying fights in Washington, Congress voted Thursday to force commercial banks out of the federal student loan market, cutting off billions of dollars in profits in a sweeping restructuring of financial-aid programs and redirecting most of the money to new education initiatives.

The revamping of student-loan programs was included in — if overshadowed by — the final health care package. The vote was 56 to 43 in the Senate, with Republicans unanimously opposed in both chambers.

Since the bank-based loan program began in 1965, commercial banks like Sallie Mae and Nelnet have received guaranteed federal subsidies to lend money to students, with the government assuming nearly all the risk. Democrats have long denounced the program, saying it fattened the bottom line for banks at the expense of students and taxpayers.

“Why are we paying people to lend the government’s money and then the government guarantees the loan and the government takes back the loan?” said Representative George Miller, Democrat of California and chairman of the Education and Labor Committee.


So, the Democrats vote to eliminate the middle man (banks) and loan directly to students - while saving billions of dollars which now will go to the students instead of the banks - yet what do Republicans think?

Quote:
“The Democratic majority decided, well look, while we’re at it, let’s have another Washington takeover,” said Senator Lamar Alexander, Republican of Tennessee and a former federal education secretary. “Let’s take over the federal student loan program.”


WTF, Lamar?? You have a problem with the Federal government wanting to make sure a federal loan program is more efficient AND cheaper??

Lamar is dumber than 100 of LaSorda's dogs.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/us/politics/26threat.html?hpw

Quote:
Other conservatives, though, accused the news media of exaggerating the threats and attacks in an effort to discredit opponents of the health care overhaul. “It is understandable that Democrats would want this opposition to their power grab to be reduced to absurdity, a spasm of racism and homophobia instead of organized conservative idealism,” Brent Bozell, the head of the Media Research Center, argued in a column posted online at GOP USA. “It is deplorable that our national news media went into overdrive on this Democrat public-relations initiative.”


Laughing

See, to hear the GOP say it, the problem isn't the racism, bigotry and stupidity of many of its supporters; the problem is the liberal media!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

levski wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/us/politics/26threat.html?hpw

Quote:
Other conservatives, though, accused the news media of exaggerating the threats and attacks in an effort to discredit opponents of the health care overhaul. “It is understandable that Democrats would want this opposition to their power grab to be reduced to absurdity, a spasm of racism and homophobia instead of organized conservative idealism,” Brent Bozell, the head of the Media Research Center, argued in a column posted online at GOP USA. “It is deplorable that our national news media went into overdrive on this Democrat public-relations initiative.”


Laughing

See, to hear the GOP say it, the problem isn't the racism, bigotry and stupidity of many of its supporters; the problem is the liberal media!


Yet, the media is strangely silent...

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2010/03/richmond_pd_investigating_cant.html
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deweyniner wrote:
Yet, the media is strangely silent...

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2010/03/richmond_pd_investigating_cant.html


Perhaps the media is not reporting this story because it's a non-story. Richmond police have determined that this was a stray shot from a random act of gunfire, and not someone targeting Cantor or Republicans. That didn't stop Cantor from trying to make political hay with it. Stay classy, Republicans.

From the story:

The No. 2 Republican in the House went on national television on Thursday to say that it was not just Democrats receiving threats; he was a target, too.

But that bullet that pierced the window in House Minority Whip Eric Cantor’s Richmond office was merely a stray shot from a random act of gunfire, a Richmond Police department spokesman told POLITICO Friday afternoon.

...Richmond Police now say there is no apparent connection between the bullet and Cantor.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Impossible. The GOP I know and trust would never do such a thing. They are our last line of defense Barack Hussein Obama the Kenyan Secret Muslim who is planning on imposing martial law and putting all the patriots into FEMA camps. If you spent more time listening to Glenn Beck you'd know this.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David B wrote:
deweyniner wrote:
Yet, the media is strangely silent...

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2010/03/richmond_pd_investigating_cant.html


Perhaps the media is not reporting this story because it's a non-story. Richmond police have determined that this was a stray shot from a random act of gunfire, and not someone targeting Cantor or Republicans. That didn't stop Cantor from trying to make political hay with it. Stay classy, Republicans.

From the story:

The No. 2 Republican in the House went on national television on Thursday to say that it was not just Democrats receiving threats; he was a target, too.

But that bullet that pierced the window in House Minority Whip Eric Cantor’s Richmond office was merely a stray shot from a random act of gunfire, a Richmond Police department spokesman told POLITICO Friday afternoon.

...Richmond Police now say there is no apparent connection between the bullet and Cantor.


I heard that this afternoon.

So chill.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'm sure I was just seconds ahead of you wanting to post a retraction Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/03/constitutionality-of-mandatory.html

Quote:
In sum, the newly legislated insurance tax is at least as indirect as unemployment insurance, more indirect than either Social Security or Medicare taxes, and less mandatory than any of the three. And yet it will be challenged as unconstitutional on mandatory direct tax grounds? One's head spins.

Now, the kicker: In a related segment moments earlier, Fox News' Bret Bair was reporting on how the healthcare reform would entail "raiding" Medicare to pay for the new healthcare programs. That is, there was an attempt to scare seniors by alluding to the possibility of touching a mandatory health insurance program that comes with a mandatory direct tax provision--but without so much as a pause to consider whether that programs fails the very constitutional standard raised in the next segment about the new healthcare law.

I'm sure there are many Americans who would like the government to get out of the business of providing insurance altogether. Fine. But if opponents want to object to healthcare mandates on constitutional grounds, they ought to at least be internally consistent and come out against Social Security, Medicare and probably unemployment insurance too. For they are the obvious and (as yet) constitutional precedents here, and they are all at least as direct and more mandatory than what the healthcare legislation requires.


Worth a read...
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And from one of the comments

http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=2764
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