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+ Jackson & Kennedy; - Scherzer & Schlereth
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What's your take on today's trade?
I'll wait and see.
44%
 44%  [ 31 ]
Two starters for one starter - I like it.
24%
 24%  [ 17 ]
D-backs got screwed and Tiger Woods wasn't even around.
31%
 31%  [ 22 ]
Total Votes : 70

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TAP
"Personality of a thumb-tack" - E Byrnes


Joined: 10 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:03 pm    Post subject: + Jackson & Kennedy; - Scherzer & Schlereth Reply with quote

Plus Jackson & Kennedy; Minus Scherzer & Schlereth

What do you think?
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levski
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ESPN has a poll going

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=mlb&pollId=82661
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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I put wait and see.

I certainly dont love it though.

"tiger isnt around" Laughing
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levski
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So does Jim at azsnakepit

http://www.azsnakepit.com/2009/12/8/1191566/edwin-jackson-ian-kennedy-to-d
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levski
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While we're at it, can we have another poll to decide if Eric Byrnes is still the face of the franchise?
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stu
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait and see is obviously the right, but wishy washy, answer. I don't think we got screwed, but I don't like it.
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wedge
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two things have to happen before I like this deal. First, the D'backs have to get Jackson under a long term deal (probably not likely) and any concerns that the D'backs have about Scherzer have to manifest themselves in Detroit. Otherwise, I think the Tigers win this trade big time, and we mortgaged a component of our future.
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DesertKnight
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll go on record as saying this is going to end very badly for the DBacks. We might be okay with it throughout 2010, but after that, when Webb is gone, Jackson refuses an extension, and Kennedy is in the pen full time, this trade will look worse with every passing day.
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wedge
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wouldn't be the first time a FO move jeopardizes the future.

(See: Byrnes, Eric)
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B. O. N. D.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bleh... I'm for the trade. I don't think Scherzer's going to flourish in Detroit as a starter. Maybe as a closer. Scherleth... who knows? He's a work in progress and also has injury concerns. Besides his K rate, he didn't show a lot of poise on the mound.

I'm trusting Josh on this one.


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amit
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still believe that Kennedy can be a useful Major League starting pitcher, so I'm going with the 2 starters for 1.
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YBC-Dog
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wedge wrote:
wouldn't be the first time a FO move jeopardizes the future.

(See: Byrnes, Eric)


In all fairness to Byrnes, who is getting hammered on this one (by me included), it wouldn't be the first time people bashed a trade he made as horrible and dumb only to be redeemed later (see Valverde, Jose).
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levski
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, some love for Kennedy and Jackson

Kennedy (IPK, from now on): you cannot look at this minor league record and not be impressed

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=kenned001ian

Almost 250 innings, with 1.95 ERA, 273K/77BB, and only 10 home runs allowed?
If a guy has this minor league record, he's already in the majors full time.
IPK hasn't gotten a bigger opportunity yet due to flukey circumstances.
But his minor league record alone warrants a gamble on this guy.
Ultimately, his stuff will determine his ceiling, but he's worth gambling on.
Remains to be seen if he's #3 or #5 guy long term, but he could be good.

Jackson (he of the complete game shutout vs. Randy Johnson):

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1841&position=P#advanced

Look at his BB/9 stats since 2006 - he's cut them in half.
His WHIP has followed suit, going down to 1.26 last year.
If that BB/9 improves further, and his K rate spikes a little, he'll be very good.
He's got really good stuff, is durable, still young, and can take another step forward.
He's been traded twice in a year, but I think he was worth the gamble.
Dbacks really have him for 2 years until he becomes a free agent, at reasonable cost.
He should give the Dbacks 2 seasons of 200 IP or so, at about $6m/year.
Quite difficult to find a player like him on the free agent market...

Anyhow, I said earlier that I don't hate this trade.
I'm not crazy about it because I still don't buy into IPK.
But am very happy to be proven wrong this season...
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jdeverehill
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lev,
I feel a little better after reading that. I'm still having trouble with the years of control aspect, though.
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B. O. N. D.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, I'm having a blast reading the comments from around all the boards re: this trade. Laughing

Believe it or not, there are some very very bitter Yankees and Tigers fans out there. I think all 3 teams rolled some dice, and AZ has a very good chance of coming-out on top.

It's all about how Kennedy does in the desert now.

Some excerpts:

Quote:
I do not see how anyone can truly believe that the Tigers "prevailed" on anything when they gave up a premier defensive centerfielder with 30 homer pop in his bat and 30 steals in his legs for a sore-armed starter who pitched less than .500 ball and also give up Edwin Jackson in the process. Again, Dumbrowski got "skinned".


Quote:
This is a great move for Arizona. A great move for Detriot. And a terrible, terrible move for the Yankees.
...

The D-Backs got a very good proven starter in Jackson, and I hate to tell everyone this, but Ian Kennedy is going to be a stud if he stays healthy. He has 4 pitches he throws for strikes, is afraid of no one and nothing, and he knows how to pitch. Barring injury he'll be better than Jackson and he is going to have the best year out of anyone in this trade next year.


Quote:
Damn, we lost Phil Coke, A-Jax and Kennedy for what? I'll tell you what an average centerfielder who can't hit lefties. I sincerly hope that this is the small move before the big move!!


Quote:
WHOA.. I live here in Arizona and I do follow the Dbax.. WTF is wrong with the GM here? Him & Ken Kendrick both need to go.. Scherzer is a hell of a pitcher, and so is Schlereth. Both had good followings here in the desert.. Something is afoot with the Dbax.. When you have a starting rotation with Webb (when healthy probably 1 or 2 in the MLB as a SP) with Haren & Scherzer thats a nice 1-2-3 punch.. Not many teams a a 1-2-3 that is solid.. Get rid of often injured Eric Byrnes & take Josh with you.. They must really want to force the big names out, but why?


I apologize if the last is from a fellow poster here. Smile
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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats funny BOND.
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Tucson DBacks Fan
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trade is very hard for me to rate. When it comes right down to it, I predict either the Tigers or the Diamondbacks are going to get lucky, one way or another. Factors out of anyone's control will determine who got the bast deal on this trade. Injuries, living up to potential, other outside factors. The trade will not look like a wash a year or two from now, but I do not see a definite winner as of now. I've read arguments pro and con about the trade on these boards and am convinced that it is too early to call a winner.
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azentropy
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll wait and see. I'm not as high on Max as others.

I do look at it as a failure of drafting though, to trade away 2 of your #1 picks over the past 4 years tells you something...
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Coop
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

azentropy wrote:
I'll wait and see. I'm not as high on Max as others.

I do look at it as a failure of drafting though, to trade away 2 of your #1 picks over the past 4 years tells you something...


Tells me that other teams value and have interest in players that were drafted and developed by the Dbacks. A failure of drafting, IMO, would be 2 of the #1 picks over the last 4 years that you couldn't give away for a bag of peanuts.
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whatuwant
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guess they think Scherzer won't be more than a 5IP guy

put me in the liking it camp. Jackson is probably? an upgrade for the moment...definitely increases my excitement for this next season


Edited for less certainty... Laughing
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KrunK
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hate it. We gave up on a guy that has pitched one full season in the majors with a huge ceiling for a Yankees cast off that had arm surgery and a one hit wonder who completely fell apart in the second half of last season. Good luck getting into the post season when your #2 and #3 starter will post an ERA well over 4 in the last 2 months of the season. Danny is a lock for that since he does it every season and Edwin's second half ERA last year was a sparkling 5.07. I'd love to look at this situation through rose colored glasses, but I don't even know if it's going to work out in the 2 years that we will have Jackson and we are definitely screwed in the long run unless Max turns out to be a complete bust, which I highly, highly doubt.

Can we get rid of both Byrnes on this team please?
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SheriffWannaBe
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KrunK wrote:
We gave up on a guy that has pitched one full season in the majors with a huge ceiling for a Yankees cast off that had arm surgery and a one hit wonder who completely fell apart in the second half of last season.


Can you really fault Kennedy for having surgery to remove an aneurysm under his armpit? It would be a different story had he torn his labrum or had fraying in the rotator cuff, etc, but I don't think this freak injury is really debilitating to his value at all.

If it makes you feel any better, David Cone had the same procedure by the same surgeon in New York to end his '96 season. He came back in September of that year and threw 7 no-hit innings. His '97 season was one of his most dominant (almost) complete seasons of his career, and he was already 34 when he had surgery.
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SheriffWannaBe
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:48 pm    Post subject: Re: + Jackson & Kennedy; - Scherzer & Schlereth Reply with quote

TAP wrote:
Plus Jackson & Kennedy

What do you think?


What do I think? I think cornering the market on ex-Presidents will lead us to victory for sure... or at least preferential treatment when we play the Nats on the road.

All we need now is Bush from MIL and yet another return of our favorite #51 Johnson and we'll be sitting pretty. Lincoln on the 'Stros is another option.
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azentropy
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coop wrote:
azentropy wrote:
I'll wait and see. I'm not as high on Max as others.

I do look at it as a failure of drafting though, to trade away 2 of your #1 picks over the past 4 years tells you something...


Tells me that other teams value and have interest in players that were drafted and developed by the Dbacks. A failure of drafting, IMO, would be 2 of the #1 picks over the last 4 years that you couldn't give away for a bag of peanuts.


I guess I expect more out of my #1 draft picks. I expect them to be cornerstones of the team for 10 years, not just pieces to try and get a potential #4 starter. Because in reality that is all they really got.
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amit
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

azentropy wrote:
I guess I expect more out of my #1 draft picks. I expect them to be cornerstones of the team for 10 years, not just pieces to try and get a potential #4 starter. Because in reality that is all they really got.

Ian Kennedy was a first round draft pick in 2006, just like Scherzer.
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