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Hansen goes looney; Gilbert calls him out
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TAP
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:39 pm    Post subject: Hansen goes looney; Gilbert calls him out Reply with quote

Greg Hansen wrote a rambling piece (of what, you decide) for the Arizona Daily Star this morning that was so far over the top, it wasn't even worth acknowledging IMO. However, since Steve Gilbert took time from his day to address Greg's ranting, point by point, here is the calling out of Greg Hansen.
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Justin
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you TAP, I had written a post addressing this but it was stuck in a random thread. Here is my imput.

I once thought Greg Hansen was an ok writer (Daily Star). Not after tonight. I read an article of his slamming the organization and saying firing Hale was essentially an idiotic boneheaded move. The article seemed to be pining for the days of Jerry Colangelo. I will go on record as saying I disagree with letting Hale go, but I can understand the reasoning behind it. Hale and Bundy were Melvin hires, let Hinch pick his own staff (much the same as JB now has a manager he actually hired).
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Justin
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In the six years since Jerry Colangelo was exiled and his credit cut off, the Diamondbacks are 80 games under .500. They have become a team without a future. They have become the Pittsburgh Pirates.

The ballpark, dreary Chase Field, is a warehouse. It is the Un-fun House. The farm system has gone bust, victimized by two poor draft classes, and there is not enough available money to buy a free agent who can make a difference

I was quit taken aback by both of those comments by Hansen. His was obviously being very selective.
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matt
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw this earlier on facebook. Hansen is a hack who is butthurt that the DBacks fired his UofA buddy.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Next thing you know, Hansen will start asking why Arizona pitchers aren't held to a 3.6 standard.

Does this qualify him for Official Idiot membership? I'd say so.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg Hansen wrote:
Upton earned $412,000 this year but played like a $20 million property. He is so good he seems destined to bat third for the Yankees or Red Sox when he becomes eligible for his first big-money contract in two years.

Aside from the 2 years until FA, this analysis is spot on; and at least Hansen wasn't complaining about Upton's fielding...

I must say that when not viewing the Club through fanboy-colored glasses, I can understand how an outside critique would paint the Diamondbacks as such. They are a mess.

I've been reading Hansen's columns since 1985 or so. I thought this was his worst piece, but only because of overly dramatic labels. He actually is a very, very good columnist with great insights, but I don't think he's recovered from Mickey Mantle being moved to 1B and baseball has dropped from his favorite sport to somewhere further down the list...

Unfortunately, several good points got lost in his exaggerated criticisms, like:

-Chip Hale was one of the top sources of the Club's mental capital. I wonder whether being the 3B coach was the best spot for him, and how much of the "windmill" was on direction from the bench/GM. (Also, he has certainly paid his dues - spending parts of 7 seasons in the majors, 3 seasons as manager in AAA, and a few more on the big club's staff. The resume compares very favorably with others on staff..)

-Chase Field does suck. It is an airplane hangar, and is a bottom-5 facility.

-This ownership group is 80 games under .500 with one post-season appearance in the 6 years since taking over.

-Colangelo overspent which is a burden on this ownership group, but this ownership has also made too many poor decisions regarding personnel to receive sympathy.

-Of the top 5 players on the Club, it's looking like Reynolds will be the only one to stick around.

-Arte Moreno was the right person to buy the Club.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Hansen goes looney; Gilbert calls him out Reply with quote

TAP wrote:
Greg Hansen wrote a rambling piece (of what, you decide) for the Arizona Daily Star this morning that was so far over the top, it wasn't even worth acknowledging IMO.

But you're going to anyway...

TAP's been waiting for a column like this since Hansen said Randy Johnson would be more remembered than missed.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Gilbert wrote:
...but this notion that Arte Moreno would spend $115 million on payroll if he owned the D-backs is hard to fathom. Moreno spends that kind of money because he's in a market far, far, far bigger than Arizona's.

I disagree. He's a billionaire. He was willing to write a check for the entire club solo. He's a native Arizonan, loves baseball, and is a competitive sonuvabitch.

Moreno purchased the Angels in May 2003

Club Payrolls:

2000: $58.7M
2001: $46.5M
2002: $67.7M
2003: $79.0M

2004: $101.0M

He bumped payroll up 25%. I personally think he would have done the exact same thing here. He understood that a losing franchise is worthless.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dirtygary wrote:
Chase Field does suck. It is an airplane hangar, and is a bottom-5 facility.

"Baseball in the 21st century. Very pleasing to the eye, very comfortable."

- Giants Broadcaster Mike Krukow, talking about Chase Field during a Giants/Diamondbacks game on September 21, 2009


I'm not a big fan of the ballpark feel with the roof closed, but it's a necessity during the hottest days. When the roof's open, I agree with Krukow.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAP wrote:
dirtygary wrote:
Chase Field does suck. It is an airplane hangar, and is a bottom-5 facility.

"Baseball in the 21st century. Very pleasing to the eye, very comfortable."

- Giants Broadcaster Mike Krukow, talking about Chase Field during a Giants/Diamondbacks game on September 21, 2009


I'm not a big fan of the ballpark feel with the roof closed, but it's a necessity during the hottest days. When the roof's open, I agree with Krukow.

Apologists Unite!!!

And are we really sourcing those Giants hacks? I'm stuck listening to those jackasses all year round. Even though they're better than Sutton and Grace, they're still no good.

Unfortunately the roof is closed 2/3's of the season. But when it's open, is it better than:

Dodger Stadium? (no)
AT&T Park? (no)
Petco Park? (no)
Coors Field? (no)

Let's move on. How many parks is Chase better than even with the roof open?

I'd say: Metrodome; Tropicana Field; Oakland-Alameda Coliseum; Sky Dome; Land Shark Stadium; and maybe Miller Park.

And 2 of those are gone in the next 2 years.

That's it.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. "Best" stadium lists are all slanted towards one thing or another, very objective. Fenway is my favorite park, but it's a dilapidated P.O.S. Whether it's ranked by facilities, aesthetics or whatever, I doubt Chase Field is on the bottom of very many fans lists who have seen multiple stadiums.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DesertKnight wrote:
Next thing you know, Hansen will start asking why Arizona pitchers aren't held to a 3.6 standard.


It does smack just a bit of his rhetoric, doesn't it?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dirtygary wrote:
Dodger Stadium? (no)
AT&T Park? (no)
Petco Park? (no)
Coors Field? (no)


Oh, please--what a dumb argument. As long as you need a roof to play baseball in 115 degree heat, there are engineering concerns that dictate the shape of the building. You can't put a roof on an open park like any of those you mentioned. If you're going to compare Chase to other parks, you have to compare apples to apples. The comparisons would be the parks in Milwaukee, Houston, Seattle, and Toronto. If you want to diss Chase, that's fine--but at least make a reasonable argument. Sure, on the whole, I think most people would prefer an open park, and open parks are better in most ways. But NOT IN 115 DEGREE HEAT!!!!!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been to many of the older stadiums. I really like Chase. No it doesnt have the (cough) charm of the Fenways of the world, but it certainly isnt awful. Perfect, no. Awful, no.

All of the new stadiums set a pretty high standard. The fact that we need a roof contributes to the "warehouse" feel.

That "warehouse" feel is certainly an advantage when that place was rocking in the playoffs in 2001. It was so loud.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dirtygary wrote:
Unfortunately the roof is closed 2/3's of the season. But when it's open, is it better than:

Dodger Stadium? (no)
AT&T Park? (no)
Petco Park? (no)
Coors Field? (no)

DesertKnight wrote:
Oh, please--what a dumb argument.

All of the apologists give the same old qualifying statement - "Yeah, but when the roof is open...", so asking if our park roof-open is better than the other parks in our division is dumb?


DesertKnight wrote:
As long as you need a roof to play baseball in 115 degree heat, there are engineering concerns that dictate the shape of the building. You can't put a roof on an open park like any of those you mentioned.

Did you know that they're building a retractable roof over Arrowhead Stadium? It isn't impossible to put roofs on any of the stadiums (it would just cost a lot). But aside from that, excellent point.


DesertKnight wrote:
If you're going to compare Chase to other parks, you have to compare apples to apples.

Yeah, another dumb argument... the invalidity of comparing baseball parks to baseball parks... Rolling Eyes Get an understanding of "apples-to-apples". It's not like I was comparing Chase to a football or basketball venue. Ranking ballparks is done all the time, and they don't separate the parks based on whether they have a roof or not. Conjuring some fantasyland ranking system where the parks are isolated based on capacity or other distinguishing characteristics is weak. It's MLB. There are 30 parks and 30 stadiums. That's apples-to-apples.


DesertKnight wrote:
The comparisons would be the parks in Milwaukee, Houston, Seattle, and Toronto.

So in a universe of 5 stadiums, Chase is in the middle of the pack. Talk about the soft bigotry of low expectations...


DesertKnight wrote:
If you want to diss Chase, that's fine--but at least make a reasonable argument.

Yes, again, what a dumb and unreasonable argument... Comparing baseball stadiums to baseball stadiums. Completely retarded...Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is just one of those arguments where there arent really going to be "winners"

Besides - isnt comparing baseball parks like comparing ice cream flavors - they are all really good, and even the ones that arent the best are still pretty sweet.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qudjy1 wrote:
This is just one of those arguments where there arent really going to be "winners"

Besides - isnt comparing baseball parks like comparing ice cream flavors - they are all really good, and even the ones that arent the best are still pretty sweet.


Good analogy. Very Happy

Hey, dg: remind me again why you're a Diamondbacks fan?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EvilJuan wrote:
Hey, dg: remind me again why you're a Diamondbacks fan?

Is it possible to be a fan and remain somewhat impartial at the same time?

The Diamondbacks are my club and even though some of the best experiences of my life occurred there, I can still objectively and impartially say that Chase stinks compared to the other MLB venues. It doesn't mean I like it any less - even the worst ballpark in MLB is still one of the 30 best places on earth; I just try not to let my personal feelings skew an objective analysis of what I think is a great ballpark.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dirtygary wrote:
I can still objectively and impartially say that Chase stinks compared to the other MLB venues.


That made me lol. Dude, it's your opinion, which holds no more weight than anyone elses. Some people like it, you don't.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qudjy1 wrote:

Besides - isnt comparing baseball parks like comparing ice cream flavors - they are all really good, and even the ones that arent the best are still pretty sweet.


x2

Do we really need another inane thread about this?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't been to all the other ballparks, but personally, I think Chase is a great place to be, with or without the roof closed. I have a great time every second I'm there. It's a beautiful park, IMO. Especially, though, with those panels and/or roof open.

I stopped reading Hansen's article once he started talking about DD, and how he was thankful to get out of here. And the thing that really pisses me off: he used DD's W/L record to evaluate how effective he was. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, the Dbacks are in no way, shape, or form like the Pirates. They have 17 straight losing seasons. How many do the Dbacks have? ONE.

Great comparison, with absolutely no basis for it. What a smart guy, that Hansen.

F**king moron.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dirtygary wrote:
dirtygary wrote:
Unfortunately the roof is closed 2/3's of the season. But when it's open, is it better than:

Dodger Stadium? (no)
AT&T Park? (no)
Petco Park? (no)
Coors Field? (no)

DesertKnight wrote:
Oh, please--what a dumb argument.

All of the apologists give the same old qualifying statement - "Yeah, but when the roof is open...", so asking if our park roof-open is better than the other parks in our division is dumb?


Yup. Because it's not a purely open-air stadium.

dirtygary wrote:

DesertKnight wrote:
As long as you need a roof to play baseball in 115 degree heat, there are engineering concerns that dictate the shape of the building. You can't put a roof on an open park like any of those you mentioned.

Did you know that they're building a retractable roof over Arrowhead Stadium? It isn't impossible to put roofs on any of the stadiums (it would just cost a lot). But aside from that, excellent point.


The roof over Arrowhead didn't pass, so it's not being built. And even if it had passed, it was for shade and protection from wind, rain, and snow--it didn't seal over the existing roof, so it wouldn't work for A/C. So as for putting a roof over an open-air baseball stadium--your allusion to Arrowhead is just as misguided as your allusion to the other parks. But other than that, excellent point. Rolling Eyes

dirtygary wrote:
DesertKnight wrote:
If you're going to compare Chase to other parks, you have to compare apples to apples.

Yeah, another dumb argument... the invalidity of comparing baseball parks to baseball parks... Rolling Eyes Get an understanding of "apples-to-apples". It's not like I was comparing Chase to a football or basketball venue. Ranking ballparks is done all the time, and they don't separate the parks based on whether they have a roof or not. Conjuring some fantasyland ranking system where the parks are isolated based on capacity or other distinguishing characteristics is weak. It's MLB. There are 30 parks and 30 stadiums. That's apples-to-apples.


You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? You just tried to compare Chase to other parks, conjuring your own fantasyland rating system, then when it's pointed out that your comparison makes no sense, you go off against rating systems?

dirtygary wrote:
DesertKnight wrote:
The comparisons would be the parks in Milwaukee, Houston, Seattle, and Toronto.

So in a universe of 5 stadiums, Chase is in the middle of the pack. Talk about the soft bigotry of low expectations...


All I said was that if you wanted to compare Chase to other parks, those are the only ones in the same category.

dirtygary wrote:

DesertKnight wrote:
If you want to diss Chase, that's fine--but at least make a reasonable argument.

Yes, again, what a dumb and unreasonable argument... Comparing baseball stadiums to baseball stadiums. Completely retarded...Rolling Eyes


It IS dumb and unreasonable, because you're ignoring the basic fact that Chase HAD to have a roof, which changes the entire design equation. I'm not going to keep arguing with you. If you don't like Chase, that's fine. I don't really care, especially when your sole reason seems to be that it's not an expansive open-air stadium.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dg: why are you so hostile? You seem offended by and condescending toward those who disagree with you.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xjwheelr wrote:
dg: why are you so hostile? You seem offended by and condescending toward those who disagree with you.


Hes always like that. Im reading this thread and it seems everyone else but him is trying to have an inteligent debate. Watch him flame me for pointing this out.
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