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2009 Mobile Baybears Thread
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stu
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Logan wrote:
Bryan Byrne should not be placed at 3B. For some reason Hector keeps putting him at 3B to help rest Sosa. I'm guessing Byrne is the only other player on the team with 3B experience, because they keep putting him there whenever Sosa doesn't play. You can tell Byrne is not meant for 3B. I think the last 3 times he was placed there at home, he made at least one error each time, costly errors at that. I know it's probably to give Sosa some rest, but Byrne just isn't meant for 3B.


I am probably preaching to the choir, but Byrne is probably playing third so that the Dbacks get a full look at him there. Without much power, 1b is tough to play him at. he needs to be able to play other positions.

The minors are 100% for development. Winning games is of no import.
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levski
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Logan wrote:

Oh, and Mike Stanton is a mammoth. Walked by him by the visitors clubhouse when he was wearing his under armour training gear... the kid is jacked... 6'5" 210... pure muscle. He's going to crush the majors whenever he's ready. The triple he torched that hitthe bottom of the wall out near center field looked like a love tap


This should make SheriffWannabe happy Laughing
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Logan
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Location: Mobile, AL

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stand corrected, our tragic number is 1... if we lose tonight we are officially done. Jacksonville needs to lose every game while we win every game, in order to make the playoffs, essentially... which likely won't happen.

stu wrote:
I am probably preaching to the choir, but Byrne is probably playing third so that the Dbacks get a full look at him there. Without much power, 1b is tough to play him at. he needs to be able to play other positions.

The minors are 100% for development. Winning games is of no import.


This is true, but he just looks bad over there. He apparently played 3B in college, so it's confusing as to why he's looked so out of place there. It's not foreign territory for him. He's a solid defensive 1B, but he just can't seem to cut it at 3B for whatever reason.

We were discussing whether or not any of these guys will get a September callup. We're thinking Pedro Ciriaco might make the cut, he's played extremely well both at the plate and in the field. His defense is second to none, the guy is a wiz with the glove. He clearly has the ability to hit for a good average, if he can work on his plate discipline or, in my humble opinion, work on gaining some muscle to add a little extra power to his game (he's sitting at 6'0" 160 lbs according to his bio), he could be a great middle infielder in the future. His frame would support the weight gain if he/the club chose to push forward in that development. I know it's easier said than done, and his genetics/metabolism may fight the weight gain, but if he could pout on 15-20 pounds of muscle in the offseason he might be able to be a 10-15hr guy with awesome defense, awesome speed, and solid contact rather than a 3-5hr guy with awesome defense, awesome speed, and solid contact. There aren't a whole lot of Chase Utley's out there, but I think Ciriaco could be a .280 10hr 60rbi 30sb guy while playing plus defense at 2B (assuming Drew is here for the long haul) if he chose the putting on muscle route. He could be a very valuable player for the DBacks down the line

Also, and this is just my personal opinion, I think they should give Josh Ellis a look at a callup just to see how his slider translates in the big leagues. Like I said in a previous post, it's pretty nasty when it's on, and he's been awesome all year long at AA. He had a rough go if it in AAA, but he's been lights out for the most part in Mobile. With the Dbacks pretty much out of it there's little harm in checking him out at the big league level. He just turned 25 this month, might be time to see what he's capable of. He could be a nice arm out of the bullpen
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dbacks watcher
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In order for Ciriaco to put on 15 pounds+ of muscle in the off season he would have to use drugs they test for now!
Realistically why do you think he could hit 10 to 15 homers when he doesn't show the ability to drive the ball now?
Ciriaco use the threat of his speed to pull in the fielders and then hits soft liners and bloopers that fall in over them. He does not drive tyhe ball hard on a consistent basis.

As to 3b , Hallberg has played there a number of times this year. Sanchez has also played there. The fact is that Byrne is not in the mix at 1st in the D'backs plans and they are trying to see if he can play anwhere else. Either that or de la Cruz doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground!
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stu
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Ciriaco is a top notch defensive ss and can hit 270/340/380, they should play him at ss and Drew at 2b.
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Logan
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dbacks watcher wrote:
In order for Ciriaco to put on 15 pounds+ of muscle in the off season he would have to use drugs they test for now!
Realistically why do you think he could hit 10 to 15 homers when he doesn't show the ability to drive the ball now?
Ciriaco use the threat of his speed to pull in the fielders and then hits soft liners and bloopers that fall in over them. He does not drive tyhe ball hard on a consistent basis.


Ciriaco has his moments, like today when he torched a ball in the gap, and I mean he peppered that thing... unfortunately he was called out at third attempting for the triple. I've seen him get a hold of some pitches. He has shown that, on occasion, he can drive the ball. I don't know for sure but I'm willing to bet they're grooming him to be a leadoff type hitter ala Juan Pierre... lots of singles, lots of bunts (he bunts a lot), lots of speed. I think his main goal is to get to first any way he can and then use his speed to get into scoring position. Half the time he reaches first he's taking off for second in the next AB. You can almost set a timer to it. And he's a solid base runner, too... he's succeeded in 80% of his attempts.

As for putting on the weight, Hanley Ramirez added 24lbs of muscle this past offseason. It'd be very difficult for Ciriaco to put on even 5lbs since he's still in the minors. He'll likely play in a fall league which will not leave him a whole offseason to hit the weights like Hanley Ramirez could afford to, but that tells you right there that if the conditions were to present themselves to him, he could be able to do such a thing. It'd take a lot of hard work and dedication to pull it off, but it's possible. And I never said he should do this over the next several months, I meant that somewhere along the line in his career it should be considered, IMO, because I think his frame would support a small weight gain. It could make a big difference in his game. We got him hitting in the 3-hole and he's bunting half the time. I mean what is that? It was bottom of the 9th, 2 outs, and he was attempting to bunt tonight. Was he trying to get on base? Of course he was... but who does that? Who calls for that?

You guys will probably hate this example, but you know how Ryan Theriot was essentially a singles hitter, then all of a sudden earlier this year he had a burst of power? It's because he changed his approach at the plate. He was trying to dreive the ball instead of slapping it the other way. I think if Ciriaco could learn to manage that a long with his small ball game it could go a long way. He's already got power potential, when he gets good wood on it it's really torched. I think if he hit the gym a little more often and worked on driving the ball instead of slapping it or bunting it he could be a really dynamic player.

I'm not saying he needs to do this to succeed, I'm just giving my opinion on what I'd like to see him do as a player over the course of the next few years. He's got a truckload of talent and even more potential, I'd like to see him unlock it, personally.

stu wrote:
If Ciriaco is a top notch defensive ss and can hit 270/340/380, they should play him at ss and Drew at 2b.


Baseball America rated him the best defensive infielder as well as best infield arm in the entire farm system. It wouldn't shock me if they would consider him the best defensive infielder in the entire organization. They would be wise to give him a call up to see if he can handle major league pitching. As for the .340obp, that would be a stretch. He does not walk much. 2200 minor league AB's, he's walked a total of 91 times. He also had a fairly bad strikeout rate in previous years, though he's cut down a bit on them this year. He was averaging about 90K's a season. He's only got 60 or so this season thus far, but it looks like he'll wind up around 70-75. Not too great, but it's a step in the right direction. That could be his caveat... his plate discipline/patience. He rarely ever takes pitches, which can mostly be attributed to his affinity for bunting.

I like the guy though, I think he has a bright future ahead of him as, at the very least, a slick defensive player. Honestly he seems a lot like Elvis Andrus. Andrus would hit about 3-5HR a season, steal tons of bases, and draw a moderate amount of walks, but Andrus also struck out around 90 times a season. If Ciriaco would draw anywhere from 35-45 walks a year he'd have virtually the same skillset as Andrus... the only thing that makes Andrus so spectacular is that he was doing that at 19 years old while Ciriaco is 23 already. Take a look at both their career minor league numbers. The slugging on Andrus is about 10 points higher, which isn't a huge difference, but the OBP difference is drastic, about 40 points. Otherwise everything else is strikingly similar, Ciriaco even has a better SB% than Andrus did (71% to 75%). They appear to be cut from the same cloth, except Andrus is capable of taking pitches once in a while whereas Ciriaco goes up there all the time with the intention of putting the bat on the ball.
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dbacks watcher
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right it makes no sense for Ciriaco to be hitting 3rd. This is the only team he'll ever do that for. If the purpose of a minor league system is to develop players then batting him 3rd doesn't prepare him for his eventual place atop an order. It also doesn't make sense if the purpose is to win games. Your example of bunting in that situation demonstrates why he isn't a number 3 hitter.

Once again the lack of a coherent plan to develop players is obvious in the Diamondback system! The question is, is it the front office or de la cruz that doesn't have a clue? My guess is both.
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Ncaldback
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stu wrote:
I am probably preaching to the choir, but Byrne is probably playing third so that the Dbacks get a full look at him there. Without much power, 1b is tough to play him at. he needs to be able to play other positions.



Logan Wrote:
Quote:
This is true, but he just looks bad over there. He apparently played 3B in college, so it's confusing as to why he's looked so out of place there. It's not foreign territory for him. He's a solid defensive 1B, but he just can't seem to cut it at 3B for whatever reason.


Stu has it near right. Byrne is playing third on occasion just to get work around the diamond. DBACKS know he's a good 1B; right now it's to give him occasional reps at third during games when others need rest (in the game mentioned, I think both Sosa and Ciriaco sat out the start.

As far as Logan's observation - Bryan was a Freshman All-American at third. Played two seasons in college at third, split a season at second and first. He hasn't seen any reps at third on a regular basis for 5 seasons....so, ya think a ball might handcuff him once in a while. As far as committing errors every time he plays third, go look at the record - that is not accurate.


I hope they keep giving Bryan chances at third. As I have said before, I seen all of these players play in good seasons and bad; at home and on the road; like everyone (or it seems like everyone) on this board I have my favorite players in the minors - Byrne is one.
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older fart
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stu wrote:
The minors are 100% for development. Winning games is of no import.


Have to disagree with this. Winning is a skill that needs to be developed just like hitting and defense.

Winning should become a tradition throughout the organization.

From the minors, to the draft, to trades, to the big club.
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stu
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

older fart wrote:
stu wrote:
The minors are 100% for development. Winning games is of no import.


Have to disagree with this. Winning is a skill that needs to be developed just like hitting and defense.

Winning should become a tradition throughout the organization.

From the minors, to the draft, to trades, to the big club.


I should have put that this is the club's philosphy, not mine. I asked Moorad about it point blank and he said the minors are 100% for development. Winning games isn't important. There were other executives there and none disagreed.

You may differ, but this is what the organization believes (although they might not be as honest as Moorad was).
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Ncaldback
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think that where players receive their playing time (position-wise) is also to a great degree pre-determined by the big club (player development staff). Roving instructors come to the clubs to address specific points such as position play, evaluations, etc... Some in this forum think HDLC is calling all (or most) of the shots. I believe the opposite is true. Hector has been given a box to play in - the boundaries of the box (games played per week, innings pitched per week, ABs etc.. ) are provided from Phoenix.

Winning is good - but player eval and development takes precedent. It has always been that way.
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stu
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Moneyball, the A's made these determinations even down to the number of pitches each pitcher would throw on a given night. IIRC, we heard something similar about Mobile a few years ago.
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older fart
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stu wrote:
older fart wrote:
stu wrote:
The minors are 100% for development. Winning games is of no import.


Have to disagree with this. Winning is a skill that needs to be developed just like hitting and defense.

Winning should become a tradition throughout the organization.

From the minors, to the draft, to trades, to the big club.


I should have put that this is the club's philosphy, not mine. I asked Moorad about it point blank and he said the minors are 100% for development. Winning games isn't important. There were other executives there and none disagreed.

You may differ, but this is what the organization believes (although they might not be as honest as Moorad was).


Thanks for the clarification. And now, I have another bone to pick with the organization.
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stu
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, I agree with you.
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stu
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my post after my conversation with Moorad.

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:12 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the ned of the Q&A, Hall was saying what a wonderful group of people the Dbacks players were and how much they loved each other. Moorad added that the players' winning experience at Tucson really helped them comne together as a team and that it had been a positive thing for those players.

Afterwards, I asked Moorad that because of the positive gained by the Tucson experience last year, if the Dbacks might put more emphasis on winning in the minor league system. I mention that the Mobil team seemed to move players around more for developmental purposes than for winning games.

He said absolutley not [i.e. that the Dbacks were not going to place any emphasis on winning] That the minor exist to devlop players for the majors and that the devlopment of players was the only thing they cared about. He said that the Tucson experience was a one time thing. Moorad didn't give much weight to winning in developing players.

He brought up Bonafacio saying that if they wanted him to play second, he would play second. This is out of the blue. I had mentioned moving infielders around, but had not mentioned Bonafacio.

I don't know enough about Mobil to say what this meant. I said I thought the issue was moving players around. Moorad reiterated that developing players was the goal.

When I first asked the question, Moorad was very clear that winning had little or no signifigance to them. As we chatted, he saw where I was going and softened it bit, saying that they wanted to win if they could. He mentioned they won in Missoula as well last year. He said that if a team was in contention, they might leave some players there longer. I said they brought up the guys from Tucson last year. He just laughed nodding his head, saying something like and they still won.

I think Moorad has a great ability to determine what the other person wants to hear and go with that if he can. I think his first response was the accurate one and he was just being agreeable with the subsequent responses.

If there was any doubt (and I don't think there was) about what their position is on developing players versus winning in the minors, Moorad answer that question. The sole goal is to develop players. If that fits with winning fine, but don't expect to see the best player playing at his best position if the Dbacks feel that a different player or a different position is in the interest of developing players for the big club.
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19braves77
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still cant get over the fact we all have hit more HR's this year then Evan Frey:

A whopping zero.

This developing vs winning is nothing new to us Mobilians. Padres shouted that for 10 years but I am much happier with the D-backs.

We just need the D-Backs to come here for an exhibition game asap.
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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Logan - what do you think of Caughlin?
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DaveK
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

older fart wrote:
stu wrote:
The minors are 100% for development. Winning games is of no import.


Have to disagree with this. Winning is a skill that needs to be developed just like hitting and defense.

Winning should become a tradition throughout the organization.

From the minors, to the draft, to trades, to the big club.



Holy Cow! I just blogged about this a few days ago.
Teach the guys that winning and being committed are what makes Major Leaguers! Let them make the decision if they want to get pulled while having their best games of their lives! (Wade Miley was throwing a perfect game through 5 innings and then got yanked by Haley)

All of the DBacks affiliates are down in the dumps. Each year I hear a select few players who just want to go home (no push for the playoffs).

Being committed is HUGE, But I guess, yeah, we will develop players who are able to play 162 but have no desire to win and would rather go home after 100 games.

Dave
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stu
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I heard Ciriaco is supposed to come to the AFL. This is unusual for someone from a country with winter ball. Is it right? I hope so?
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Logan
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

qudjy1 wrote:
Hey Logan - what do you think of Caughlin?


I started working here about a week and as half before he went down with an injury in the SL All Star Game. What I do know and figured out was that before he was injured, the guys hitting around him were relatively productive and the team was one of the tough teams to beat in the SL.

After he was injured the guys hitting around him slumped big time and the team somehow forgot how to win games. This can probably be attributed to a lot of things, but Coughlin was having a pretty damn great year at the dish before he went down. I'm sure his exclusion from the lineup was a big factor in their struggles. With him out of the picture there's no reason to give guys like Sosa or Byrne anything to hit. It seemed like it was a blow to their morale. Their starting catcher and arguably best offensive player gets injured for the rest of the season on a flukish injury that happened in the ASG. It sucked.

But if he's able to come back and be similarly productive (I'm assuming they're gonna start him in AA to begin next season), I think he'll make it to AAA before next year is over. If AAA doesn't appear to be much of a hindrance on him he might be a September callup next year. Granted, this is just my opinion based on his overall numbers and what I saw of him in two weeks. But I saw the effect he had on the lineup when he wasn't in there and it was catastrophic.
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Logan
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stu wrote:
I heard Ciriaco is supposed to come to the AFL. This is unusual for someone from a country with winter ball. Is it right? I hope so?


He's going to the Scottsdale Scorpions according to Baseball America...

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/minors/winter-baseball/arizona-fall-league/2009/268774.html

Other notable players on his team... Brandon Allen, Bryan Augenstein, Buster Posey, Thomas Neal, Jose Tabata.

According to their first drafts of the AFL rosters, Ciriaco and Augenstein will be the only BayBears joining the AFL this year.
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19braves77
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HMMM... Baybears pound out 17 hits and score a cluster of runs with three minor league coordinators in house along with other D-backs brass. Youngblood was yelling at the outfielders during the game about being out of position and taking the wrong angles to balls.

Lot of effort today and everyone was out of the field much earlier then normal.
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Logan
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And Mike Stanton hit a home run ball that landed 3 feet away from my face, lol. Looked like a routine pop up, but he hit it about a mile in the air and it just kept on going and going and going, until finally it hit the McDonalds sign 3 feet above my head, lol.

Yeah, it was a massacre last night. It could partly be due to the fact that Jacksonville had just clinched the playoffs and they did some decent partying the night before in the visitors clubhouse. A few key starters were out of the lineups that night. Plus they brought it Brett Harker in relief even though he started on Saturday night. He is not a good pitcher. He wasn't good Saturday, and he was even worse last night. The BayBears lit him up like a Christmas tree.

Yeah, all around it was complete destruction of the Suns. They worked 'em.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anybody else shocked at the lack of roster moves the last three weeks of the season ? Usually, you reward players for doing well with a cup of coffee for a great season. I thought atleast we see Cowgill, Shaw, and Easley this year by now.
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stu
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When does Mobile's season end? If anyone is going to get called up it would be after the season.

On another note, the last baseball America named Ciriaco as the best defensive ss and best arm in the Southern League.
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