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foulpole
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McCray wrote:

or, who else should we get?


How about chasing Mark Buehrle?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tmar wrote:
We're going to burn Estrada & Hairston for sure and likely a few others.

John Gambadoro in tomorrow morning's Arizona Republic wrote:
Look for the D-Backs to field trade offers for disgruntled catcher Johnny Estrada during the off-season. While Estrada has had a nice year at the plate, hitting .306 with 11 home runs and 70 runs batted in, teammates quietly have questioned his work ethic and attitude.

Sounds like Glaus version 2.
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"Personality of a thumb-tack" - E Byrnes


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Nick's article:
Byrnes' cautionary tale speaks to the follies of free agency...You can pretty much rule out any kind of a run at the elite-level starters...But with so many teams in need of pitching and with the industry performing robustly thanks to record attendance marks and increased revenue sharing, even the second-tier starters could command $7 million to $8 million a year...So to find another top-of-the-rotation type of guy, the trade route might be the Diamondbacks' best path.

Somehow this all sounds very familiar... Laughing

No splashy FA pitcher signings this offseason, and Gonzo is gone. 2 for 2 ain't bad, eh? Cool
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tmar
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my fear; we trade away some talent <Hairston & Etrada> just to trade them and get in return a PV pitcher with similar upside to EnGon or EGon next year.
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charlie
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I belive Josh Byrnes should avoid another mistake (extending Melvin's contract being the first big one!), trade Eric Byrnes and put Chad Tracy in LF if he cannot obtain a better power bat and more consistant hitter to replace E. Byrnes with.

Comparing Eric and Chad on offense:

April: BA/OBP/SLG/OPS; 2B - HR - RBI;

Byrnes: 237/318/373/691; 3 - 1 - 5
Tracy: 306/361/373/851; 9 - 3 - 13

May:

Byrnes: 364/406/717/1.123; 11 - 8 - 16
Tracy: 287/339/519/858; 7 - 6 - 19

June:

Byrnes: 238/309/440/749; 6 - 3 - 10
Tracy: 243/300/374/674; 5 - 3 - 11

July:

Byrnes: 295/354/477/831; 7 - 3 - 12
Tracy: 258/345/412/758; 6 - 3 - 17

August:

Byrnes: 239/269/442/711; 6 - 5 - 17
Tracy: 296/350/361/712; 7 - 0 - 8

Sept:

Byrnes: 225/250/375/625; 3 - 3 - 11
Tracy: 277/339/440/779; 6 - 3 - 9

Season:

Byrnes: 270/319/482/801; 36 - 23 - 71
Tracy: 277/339/440/779; 40 - 18 - 77

Byrnes had two fabulous months for him at this stage of his career: May and July. Otherwise, he was very, very ordinary at the plate, well below what I personally want to see from our everyday leftfielder.

Tracy had a miserable June and July when he fell into his hitting slump, but even then was about as good or a bit better overall than Byrnes was in those months. He was far more consistant throughout the season and will wind up with season's statistics about in the same range. However, Tracy has considerably more upside while Byrnes probably is in the same position as Tony Clark of a year ago: had a career year and can't be expected to repeat it. Byrnes is a wild swinger and for the last several weeks cannot seem to recognize pitches right down the middle of the plate, laying off them and swinging instead at pitches well out of his capability to hit them, resulting in his plummeting average. Tracy seems to have worked out of his difficulties at the plate to some degree and appears back on track to hitting the ball as he did in the early part of the season. Hopefully, next season will see him return to that form while I doubt that Byrnes can repeat his.

If no other better replacement could be obtained in Byrnes place for LF, and if Tracy were moved there, we'd lose some speed on the base paths and some range on defense, but I think Tracy would be a competent enough defender, and I also believe he'd likely be a significant upgrade on offense over Byrnes in 2007.

I'd be interested in other opinions on this.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would solve 2 of my major issues if Tracy could provide adequate D in LF. <those issues being E Byrnes in AZ at all and Tracy's D at 3B>
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McCray
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maybe i'm insanely optimistic, but tracy played great defense and hit well the first month or two. i think there's a decent chance he comes back next year, plays great 3b, and hits somewhere between tracy06, tracy05, and tracy 04.

ultimately, i do see him as our LF replacement, though. i just don't think that time is yet.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we moved Tracy to LF it would also open up a spot for Callaspo <not to mention save us about 5MM next year>.
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EvilJuan
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tmar wrote:
If we moved Tracy to LF it would also open up a spot for Callaspo <not to mention save us about 5MM next year>.


Me likee.

But, as has been pointed out before, it's gonna be mucho difficult for the FO to trade Byrnes in the wake of the Gonzo dismissal. Like it or not, for those who need a "face" for the franchise, it certainly appears that Gonzo is going to be replaced by "Pigpen." Mad If anything, unless something goes seriously wrong -- such as Byrnes riding a motorcycle with the same manic intensity by which he does flips on throwing the ball in from deep center field to (or over) the cutoff man; or some obviously outrageous demands for $$$/contract length; or some impossible trade offer -- it's more likely that Tracy will be traded, and not Byrnes. (Sorry, Mac -- it's not the best move, nor a move I support, but it could happen...)

Gonna be an interesting off-season...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EvilJuan wrote:
...unless something goes seriously wrong -- such as Byrnes riding a motorcycle with the same manic intensity by which he does flips on throwing the ball in from deep center field to (or over) the cutoff man.

See: Jeff Kent, downtown Scottsdale
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tmar
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we're pretty safe on Tracy EJ. I don't think the FO is looking to spend $$ or talent in upgrading that position, nor are they ready to give it to Callaspo.

Deep down I feel we are looking at a pitching trade and some resignings/arbitrations and maybe a little bullpen acquisitions but that's it.
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McCray
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

byrnes wouldn't get into a motorcycle crash or anything. it'd be more like he's wiping his own ass, and somehow manages to flip himself through the air, breaking his collar bone.

i could see that.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McCray wrote:
byrnes wouldn't get into a motorcycle crash or anything. it'd be more like he's wiping his own ass, and somehow manages to flip himself through the air, breaking his collar bone.

i could see that.


ROFL!!! Thanks, I needed that right now! Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know Byrnes is very streaky this year...but there is always hope he could improve offensively. With Aldrete gone, maybe he can learn to not swing as much on those pitches low in the zone, preventing those constant popouts to 2nd base.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5991902

Ken Rosenthal sums up the Pitching market.. Normally not a big fan of him, but i think this gets the feel of what AZ is up against in getting pitching this offseason...


Quote:
Say hello to the "Esteban Loaizas of 2006."

The scout who coined that phrase wasn't talking about the top of this year's free-agent pitching market left-hander Barry Zito and righty Jason Schmidt.
He wasn't talking about potential free agents such as right-handers Greg Maddux and Mike Mussina and lefty Andy Pettitte.

No, he was talking about the large collection of mediocre starters who figure to hit the jackpot the way Loaiza, a right-hander, did as a free agent last off-season, when the A's awarded him a three-year, $21.375 million contract.

A perfect storm awaits this winter: The industry is awash in revenue, leaving all but a few clubs ready to spend. The demand for pitching, however, far exceeds supply, ensuring that the market will be insane.

Loaiza's contract like the three-year, $22.5 million deal that righty Kris Benson landed from the Mets in the 2004-05 off-season will be a launching point for excess.

"This could be the largest infusion of bad contracts and lopsided trades in quite a while," one general manager says. "I would expect there to be more than a few shocking transactions this winter. We will see, but I think it will be ugly."


Poll

The shortage of pitching will put a team such as the Marlins in a position of strength if they wish to trade their most accomplished starter, left-hander Dontrelle Willis. The same will go for a team such as the Astros if they opt to trade their closer, Brad Lidge.

The biggest beneficiaries will be this year's Bensons and Loaizas that group of largely undistinguished starters who offer just enough appeal to tempt clubs into making eye-popping offers.

One of those pitchers, Phillies left-hander Randy Wolf, is expected to attract a large crowd of scouts Saturday when he faces the Marlins on MLB on FOX (1 p.m. ET).

Three other potential free agents Royals left-hander Mark Redman, Rangers right-hander Vicente Padilla and Diamondbacks right-hander Miguel Batista will command similar attention Saturday as well.

"It will be very difficult to separate these guys," one executive says. "If you ask people to put lists together, the lists won't look the same."

Or, as one scout puts it, "There's a lot of mediocrity out there, guys with more than one question mark."

The first seven pitchers on this list are similar in age to Benson, who was 30 when he signed his deal. The next six are more similar in age to Loaiza, who was 34.

Without further ado, then, let's meet the Bensons and the Loaizas:


The Bensons

Randy Wolf, Phillies (69-60, 4.20 ERA lifetime).
Healthy just in time: Wolf, 30, returned from elbow-ligament transplant surgery in just 13 months, and scouts have liked what they've seen in his 10 starts since coming off the disabled list.

A finesse lefty, Wolf probably is best suited for a big park rather than Philadelphia's Citizens Bank Bandbox. One scout describes him as a "borderline No. 3 or 4" who is better than a comparable lefty, Ted Lilly.

In this market, that makes him Sandy Koufax.


Ted Lilly, Blue Jays (58-57, 4.62).
John Gibbons? What happened with John Gibbons?

The Jays want Lilly back despite his well-documented flare-up with his manager, but the left-hander, 30, seems almost certain to test the market.

His wife, Tasha, will be a third-year veterinary student at the University of California at Davis next season, making the Giants or any team in California a good fit.

The issue with Lilly is durability: Can he stay healthy? Can he pitch deep into games? He's upright and stiff in his delivery, one scout says, increasing the strain on his shoulder and making it difficult for him to keep the ball down.


Gil Meche, Mariners (55-44, 4.62).
Believe it or not, Meche figures to be one of the most coveted free-agent right-handers, in part because he just turned 28.

Meche's stuff has never been in question, but his lack of consistency is reflected in the difference between his performances in June (3-0, 1.60) and August (0-3, 6.87).

"He's intriguing," one scout says. "But which guy are you getting?"


Vicente Padilla, Rangers (65-60, 4.01)
Oh boy. Padilla, 29, might be more talented than any pitcher on this list, but rival scouts and executives say that his makeup and off-field troubles raise concerns.

On July 7, Padilla was arrested on suspicion of driving while intoxicated; the charge was later dismissed.

On Aug. 17, he was suspended five games at a critical point of the season for hitting two Angels and almost a third.

Say this for Padilla he has proven he can pitch at hitter-friendly Ameriquest Field. The team that signs him will get a right-hander with great stuff and the rest of his bizarre package as well.


Jeff Suppan, Cardinals (106-101, 4.60)

Jeff Suppan is actually reliable by this group's standards. (Elsa / Getty Images)

Eureka! Teams can actually trust Suppan, 31.

"You talk about reliable it's Jeff Suppan-dash-reliable," one scout says. "He knows how to get guys out."

Suppan, a right-hander, has averaged nearly 15 wins and 185-plus innings in three seasons with the Cardinals. The team would be wise to keep him: Chris Carpenter, another righty, is the Cardinals' only veteran starter signed beyond this season.


Jason Marquis, Cardinals (56-51, 4.50)
Maybe the most debated pitcher on this list.

The right-handed Marquis, 28, has had mixed results working under the Braves' Leo Mazzone and Cardinals' Dave Duncan, two of the game's most highly regarded pitching coaches.

The operative phrase is "stubborn," and Marquis' 2006 resume includes two dubious stats the highest ERA, 5.82, and most home runs allowed, 33, in the NL.

Still one scout calls Marquis "a sleeper."

By the time the season ends, Marquis will have averaged 14 wins, 32-plus starts and 200-plus innings in three years with the Cardinals.


Adam Eaton, Rangers (53-45, 4.37)
Good luck figuring him out.

Eaton, who turns 29 on Nov. 23, appeared on the verge of a breakthrough when he went 9-2 with a 3.42 ERA for the Padres before the 2005 All-Star break.

Since then, finger injuries have limited him to just 19 starts. And even when healthy, the right-hander has never pitched 200 innings in a season.

"In a healthy world, he's a No. 2 or 3 at worst," one rival executive says. "But I don't know if you can get 175 to 180 innings from him."


The Loiazas

Woody Williams, Padres (122-101, 4.0Cool
Never mind that Williams, a right-hander, turned 40 on Aug. 19; he's 10-5 with a 3.53 ERA, enjoying his best season since 2003.

The Astros seem likely to pursue the native Houstonian, particularly if they do not retain Roger Clemens and/or Andy Pettitte.

A rival executive says that Williams, one of the game's great competitors, wants to pitch for the Astros "in the worst way."


Miguel Batista, Diamondbacks (67-78, 4.44)
Unusually versatile. Batista, a right-hander, has been mostly a starter in four of the past five seasons, averaging more than 190 innings. But in 2005 he closed for the Blue Jays, converting 31 saves in 39 opportunities.

Batista, 35, is 5 2/3 innings short of reaching 200 for the first time in his career. Since the All-Star break, he's 2-2 in 13 starts, but with a 3.61 ERA.


Steve Trachsel, Mets (134-142, 4.2Cool
Trachsel, who turns 36 on Oct. 31, might be methodical, but he has been mostly dependable, averaging 13 wins in his five healthy seasons with the Mets.

Back surgery limited the right-hander to six starts in 2005, and his 4.96 ERA this season is well above his previous 4.23 career mark. His 15 wins are largely a reflection of his run support, which is the best in the NL.

Bonus points for succeeding in New York.


Cory Lidle, Yankees (81-72, 4.57)
When asked about Lidle, one rival executive posed a question that applies to many pitchers on this list:

Why would a team invest in him heavily if it has legitimate fifth-starter candidates in its farm system?

Lidle, 34, is a streaky, competitive sinker-baller who occasionally rubs teammates and coaches the wrong way.

"He doesn't pitch to plans very well," one scout says. "He pitches to what he thinks the plan should be."


Mark Redman, Royals (63-75, 4.59)

Mark Redman is looking forward to free agency. Understandably so. (John Williamson/MLB Photos / Getty Images)

Redman, a left-hander, is looking forward to free agency; he aptly described the market as "pitching-starved" in a recent interview with the Kansas City Star.

Hey, he was an All-Star, right?

Well, he was the Royals' All-Star, and he probably would be wise to stay in Kansas City or sign with a National League club.

"Below-average stuff, a nibbler," one scout says. "I see him as a non-pressure, second-division rotation guy or fifth starter for a decent club."


Orlando Hernandez, Mets (80-59, 4.21)
A latter-day Satchel Paige except that Paige, who pitched his final season at 59, might have been younger.

Just last week, Hernandez's former manager with the White Sox, Ozzie Guillen, scoffed at the listed age for "El Duque," who supposedly turns 37 on Oct. 11.

However old he is, "El Duque" can still pitch ... as long as he is motivated.

"He gets bored," one scout says. "He has to pitch somewhere where it means something in September or October."

Health also is a concern, which is why "El Duque" fits right in with the rest of the Bensons and Loaizas.

Sign him, pay him and hold your breath.

Ken Rosenthal is FOXSports.com's senior baseball writer
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moviegeekjn
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<< Still one scout calls Marquis "a sleeper." >>

That's right--Marquis is guaranteed to put the home town fans to sleep!

btw, Suppan is the one current FA pitcher that the Cards are almost certain to re-sign. Marquis is gone... gone... gone. with NO love lost.


Last edited by moviegeekjn on Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tmar
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That pretty much says goodbye to Batista. I wish him well and hopefully he makes out.

Also makes you think that we should run out there next year with no new pitchers. It would be kind of hard to sell to the fans, but probably would make the most sense.

If I had to choose from the ones listed above, I'd probably have to go with Padilla. I'd rather take my chances on off-field antics than on-field issues.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd let Batista walk and take a chance on Padilla. As long as we dump Vargas (either by trade or non-tender) we still have spots open for Edgar and Enrique.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe Vargas has some trade value now.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Padilla, Meche and Suppan would be the only three pitchers on that list that I think make any sense at all..and only if you can get the at a reasonable cost (in both dollars and years), which I don't think will happen. I think teams will overpay for all three of them.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tmar wrote:
Maybe Vargas has some trade value now.


How much can a journey man pitcher whose highest hopes rely on being around a .500 pitcher command. Those body parts circulate every season.
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YBC-Dog
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a question for everyone:

What will the team do with all that freed up payroll? We have roughly 30M-40M to spend and I'm guessing Moorad is itching to make a splash on the market to quell some of the backlash...so we'll do something, I'd bet.

I know the obvious answer is to be frugal, and wait until '08 when some bigger and better pitchers become available, but this is the Diamondbacks we're talking about.

So if you're Josh Byrnes, what's the best way to blow your bosses money?

Get Bonderman, and lock him up with an extension?

Overpay for a pile of Schmidt (but not give up any prospects)?

Go with internal pitching options, and pick up that "Impact bat"?

I like the Jennings idea, but no way the Rockies trade him in the division...

I also kind of agree about getting a big bat in the lineup to protect the younger hitters. Doesn't have to be Carlos Lee or Soriano, but someone who has a little better discipline and more pop than Eric Byrnes.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bonderman. that's all i'm asking for from santa this year. lock him up for another 4 yrs or so, and everyone's happy. Very Happy

as much as i want it, i don't know if detroit will trade him. not with the craziness that's going on with pitching right now.

i think we need to look at trades, and then extensions. that seems to be what byrnes wants to do most. think he'll be able to convince moorad to avoid the FA splash?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McCray wrote:
think he'll be able to convince moorad to avoid the FA splash?


I hope he can, but my gut tells me no. This team has to overpay someone or Moorad won't be able to sleep at night. That's why I presented the question that way...

Say you have to spend 30M because your bosses are telling you they have to, to appease the fans and keep payroll where they said it'd be.

What do you do?

I think with the list of pitchers available after '07, you need to try to make sure as much of that money is available as possible, so you're probably right on the trade route, but who (other than Bonderman)?
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B. O. N. D.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Go with internal pitching options, and pick up that "Impact bat"?


Quote:
I also kind of agree about getting a big bat in the lineup to protect the younger hitters. Doesn't have to be Carlos Lee or Soriano, but someone who has a little better discipline and more pop than Eric Byrnes.


Josh would have to trade Byrnes to make room and I don't think that's going to happen. Plus, I think we're going to have plenty of impact bats in 2007 and beyond.

I bet he just sits pretty with our own in-house pitching and makes a rotation out of Webb, Livan, Edgar, Enrique, and Cruz. Or if they don't want Cruz to start and he goes to the BP, maybe Nippert or Owings comes up (even though I think the could use some more AAA). Maybe they go for one pitcher.

But if they go for a pitcher, it's going to be through trade, so it has to come via Estrada or Byrnes or some AAA guys NOT named Callaspo. Mad

I'm getting tired of hearing his name mentioned in trade rumors in the media. As much as I like him, I'd rather be hearing O-Dawg trade rumors...
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