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TAP
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's so clear now. All that might disagree with your politics are simply wrong "because they are too prideful to admit that they were fooled." How could we possibly have been so inane and prideful to not share your view?
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McCray
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't blame me... I voted for Kodos...

/"Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!!!"
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dirtygary
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAP wrote:
It's so clear now. All that might disagree with your politics are simply wrong "because they are too prideful to admit that they were fooled." How could we possibly have been so inane and prideful to not share your view?

Should I wait for the other 3 to correct you in your misinterpretation of my statement again?

Is it unintentional obtuseness or willful ignorance? And why the assumption of the most negative intent of my statements?

I was referring to one specific failed foreign policy.

There was no expansion beyond that; let alone one so broad to encompass the entire political spectrum.

And you left out the part stating who you were fooled by. Can't forget that, it's the kicker about who you guys trusted.
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TAP
"Personality of a thumb-tack" - E Byrnes


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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dirtygary wrote:
TAP wrote:
It's so clear now. All that might disagree with your politics are simply wrong "because they are too prideful to admit that they were fooled." How could we possibly have been so inane and prideful to not share your view?

Should I wait for the other 3 to correct you in your misinterpretation of my statement again?

Is it unintentional obtuseness or willful ignorance? And why the assumption of the most negative intent of my statements?

I was referring to one specific failed foreign policy.

There was no expansion beyond that; let alone one so broad to encompass the entire political spectrum.

And you left out the part stating who you were fooled by. Can't forget that, it's the kicker about who you guys trusted.

I'll end this discussion with you now before it degrades further. This topic is very personal for me and I do share daily communication with Marines serving in Iraq - one in particular that is very important to me. They see the good that is being accomplished first-hand and are proud to tell me about it.

I'll close with this thought: Just because you believe strongly that your view is obviously correct doesn't mean that those that disagree with you are intellectually inferior. They just don't share your view. That's all.
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dirtygary
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with ya on this not devolving further. It's quite personal on this end, as well.

This is not about intellect, it's about wisdom and values. Those guys are just doing their jobs, and I hope there is something good occurring. Christ, for 90,000 lives and $9 Billion a month, there better be something.

And this isn't about whether we should have gone in the first place (I think we got our answer on that one), it's about what we do from here on out.

What is the objective? What is "victory"? How much is it worth? Can it even be accomplished? Are we supposed to keep "doubling down", month after month, year after year, life after life? Where is the finish line?

And if we don't have definitive answers to those basic questions, we have no business planning anything but our withdrawal.

At the end of the day, I think this country is going to collectively ask itself "Why did we do that again? And for what?"
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Driaz
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dirtygary wrote:
TAP wrote:
It's so clear now. All that might disagree with your politics are simply wrong "because they are too prideful to admit that they were fooled." How could we possibly have been so inane and prideful to not share your view?

Should I wait for the other 3 to correct you in your misinterpretation of my statement again?

Is it unintentional obtuseness or willful ignorance? And why the assumption of the most negative intent of my statements?

I was referring to one specific failed foreign policy.

There was no expansion beyond that; let alone one so broad to encompass the entire political spectrum.

And you left out the part stating who you were fooled by. Can't forget that, it's the kicker about who you guys trusted.


I'm not going to get dragged into any type of flaming political internet war, especially here. My interpretation of TAP's response to your post was something I myself was thinking. You mentioned being pissed at being called anti-American (I'm assuming other places, as I've never seen anyone here call you anti-American) and then in turn present an opinion currently widely supported, and make your own disparaging remarks about those that don't conform to YOUR opinion of the war in Iraq as being fooled, so they are too stupid to acknowledge your superior opinion. Did you say that? Nope. But I suspect you take words of opposition of your opinion to imply you are anti-American as an insult, even if it isn't spelled out. See the problem when we perceive too much and make wild assed assumptions from either side of the political spectrum? You're doing exactly the wrongs in political discussion that you perceive to have endured to your political positions when the popularity was for the war. Fair enough on less intelligent boards, but this is the message board that doesn't suck, and there are some smart folks here, with diverging political views I enjoy reading, myself excluded of course, being a dumb redneck and all. Wink

I've rambled on long enough, don't know if I made my point or not, but in summary, my perception is you are portraying your opinion on the war, apparently held from day one, as fact, and that anyone that disagrees with you is somehow not as politically smart as you.
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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was kinda worried about this when i started this thread. I really hoped this could become a "tribute" and thanks to those serving - and thats it.

Maybe it was a mistake. Crying or Very sad
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csktech
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was no way this war could have been won. Not because we entered it with no plan of withdrawal, which we didnt. Not because money for oil, which again Im sure played a huge part in the decision to invade.

No this was could not be won because the people of the middle east, Muslims in particler have no sense of country.

We could have changed one strongman for another and likely we would have to waste trillions of dollars over the next twenty years keeping him in power.

But when the shit hits the fan the average person in the middle east (Yes I know Im over simplizing this) will first think of himself, then his family, then his religon....


There really is no place for country in his world veiw and for the good of others outside his little cliques just doesnt exsist..

Not the first time we have fought a war that we could not win. See Regans war on drugs and Im sure it wont be the last.

Support the warriors, even if you cant support the politics that drive the war.

Kyle

NOW SHUTTING UP ON THIS TOPIC
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shoewizard
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notice how I have been largely ignoring the political threads.

It's all I can do to keep from getting into fights over baseball....can you imagine if I was as active as you guys on the political threads?


Politics, religion, and Jose Valverde. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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csktech
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shoewizard wrote:
Notice how I have been largely ignoring the political threads.

It's all I can do to keep from getting into fights over baseball....can you imagine if I was as active as you guys on the political threads?


Politics, religion, and Jose Valverde. Laughing Laughing Laughing


I should have taken your advice and I will from now on.. no politics for Kyle

Kyle
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dirtygary
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only "wrong" answer is to not engage. We're supposed to fight about this stuff. We should be fighting about it everyday.

This whole thing got started because of:
Quote:

Crying or Very sad
So sad. Such a waste.

And one guy that mistakenly thought I was saying the soldier's life was a waste, which a few folks properly corrected him on.

Again, the argument was not expanded beyond this one topic to include my entire catalog of political views, but the facts of the last five years show that those opposed from the beginning were correct. We didn't trust Bush and the BS reasons provided; and we certainly didn't trust this administration to successfully execute a strategy without long-term consequences.

I think it does a disservice to the soldiers to blindly follow elected officials setting a policy that for which some very basic, and mandatory, questions have not been answered.

A basic SWOT analysis suggests this isn't a wise policy and I suggested it was pride keeping us there; and in between the time we wake up and the time we go to bed, allowing this policy to drag out, a handful more Merlin's will die.

And it's too easy to say we should stay there so that the soldiers already killed didn't die for nothing, because somehow more soldiers, and maybe a couple hundred thousand more civilians, dying validates their sacrifices.
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TAP
"Personality of a thumb-tack" - E Byrnes


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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

qudjy1 wrote:
I was kinda worried about this when i started this thread. I really hoped this could become a "tribute" and thanks to those serving - and thats it.

Maybe it was a mistake. Crying or Very sad

Gary, let it go. Blast the war in another thread please.
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dirtygary
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh? I'm just supporting the troops. You know, hoping more of them don't get killed.

Don't they deserve that?

TAP, you've been against everything I've said in this thread and the Barack thread, taken each and every one of my comments out of context, called me arrogant, etc., and now you ask me to leave?

My family has a strong military history, several friends are in the service, and I have nothing but their best interests at heart. I have not misconstrued any of the facts, but I do blame the intellectually lazy opinion of not seeking an answer and an end to this occupation.

By the way, the "war" ended with "Mission Accomplished". Three years ago.
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McCray
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

***NOTE: This is NOT an argument about the Iraq topic. I am not interested in fighting about that. My views lie between yours and TAP's, and nothing said on this board will persuade me to move my stance.

What I am interested in is HOW this debate is being argued. For example:

Quote:
"The only "wrong" answer is to not engage. We're supposed to fight about this stuff. We should be fighting about it everyday."


I disagree. You are opposed to fighting a war that has no point, no purpose, and yet that is what you suggest we do. What is the point of us engaging, fighting? Are any of us really going to change anyone else's views?

I'm sorry, but I don't think so little of everyone else's views as to believe they'd actually be swayed by a message board argument. They believe what they believe because they have personal reasons, held deeply and closely to the core of their belief structure. My posts won't ever change that. Yours probably won't either.

Quote:
"the facts of the last five years show that those opposed from the beginning were correct."


Not remotely. "Facts" don't prove anything. "Facts" are easily tortured and manipulated. One "fact" can prove or disprove a thousand differing views.

Quote:
"I think it does a disservice to the soldiers to blindly follow elected officials setting a policy that for which some very basic, and mandatory, questions have not been answered."


I think it does a disservice to humanity to blindly follow anyone or anything --- that includes blindly following those one either side of this debate.

Quote:
"A basic SWOT analysis suggests this isn't a wise policy and I suggested it was pride keeping us there; and in between the time we wake up and the time we go to bed, allowing this policy to drag out, a handful more Merlin's will die."


These arguments bother me. Firstly, those who are paid vast sums to work in politics probably have access to better decision making tactics than you do. Second, I have trouble seeing any leader, one I support or one I don't, letting that many people die just for pride.

This is what turns people off to your argument. You have valid points to make, but instead of making them, you demonize those in opposition. You make them dumber and crueler than they are.

Hold those who disagree with you in the highest possible esteem --- that's the only way you or they will learn anything from the debate.
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DesertKnight
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started writing what I hoped would be a thoughtful post on some of the more difficult issues being discussed here, but decided to follow Qudjy on this one and simply thank our troops for their service.

One point, though, to those who have friends in Iraq: please don't forget (because I know you all know this) that "the troops" are not a monolithic group. Many do support what we're doing in Iraq--and many more do not. But those who do not, still go on patrols, still put their lives on the line every day, if not for the policy or for the Iraqis, then for their fellow soldiers. They are all--politics aside--exceedingly courageous people and deserve to be admired for that reason alone. Using them to score political points, whether on a message board, on the campaign trail, or on the White House lawn, whether pro-war or anti-war, is wrong. "Support the troops" does not mean "leave them in Iraq," nor does it mean "bring them home." It means, support them, wherever they are, whatever they're doing. If you have a problem with the policy, that's fine--take it up with the politicians; after all, when Thomas Jefferson said that "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom," he meant that the citizens had to keep an eye on their government to make sure it didn't become a tyranny.

So please--let's respect our soldiers, current and past, Republican and Democrat, and honor them for their service. And let's keep the politics out of the memorials. Create another thread for arguing over the war, and I'll join you there.

For now, though, I'll simply say to our troops...

Thank you for doing your job, difficult as it is. I, for one, applaud you.
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shoewizard
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DK, that is the perfect sentiment here.

Thanks.
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dirtygary
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothin but love and concern for the troops and their safety.

I didn't intend for the thread to be hijacked by two parties in a dispute that has carried over from another thread, but accept responsibility, nonetheless. It's all upsetting and very frustrating.
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McCray
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DK,

If your post wasn't so damn wordy ( Wink ) I'd get it tattooed word for word on my back. Perfect.
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dirtygary
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got this issue of SI on my birthday last year, and seeing how this is a thank-you thread on a sports-related board, it seems relevant.
Quote:
Athletes love teams, and when they run out of sports teams they sometimes join bigger teams, ones with Humvees for huddles and...

And they throw their whole selves into it anyway, because they are brave and disciplined and will chew through concrete to win the game.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/rick_reilly/02/12/reilly0205/index.html


I apologize for exposing you guys to any more Reilly than you must. Laughing
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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remembering those who are serving, and those who have served this Memorial Day.

Remembering the Fallen

Micheal Monsoor

Riderless Horse

Portraits of fallen comfort broken hearts

Pa. Soldier Who Jumped on Grenade to Receive Posthumous Medal of Honor
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TAP
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks qudjy1 for that poignant reminder. I'm thankful for the best possible gift a father could receive this week as my son is home on leave celebrating Memorial Day with his family midway through his 1-year Iraq tour. May we never forget all of the men and women who throughout our country's history have sacrificed their lives to ensure our freedom and security.


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THE SHADOW
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Three things I try not to talk about with people.

1. Religion
2. Abortion
3. Politics

Why? You never are going to change anyones minds on these issues and its a waste of time to try.

With that said Im about as far left as you can get and one of my best friends is a staunch republican. He is also in the Army and in Iraq. I may not support the war but damn I support all the troops over there and hope for their safe return home.

His wife is driving from Colorado picking up my daughter in New Mexico and they both should be here in a couple hours for the holiday weekend.

We will BBQ, and have lots of fun this weekend with friends and family but our thoughts are with Evan in Iraq and here is hoping he is home soon so he can join us for a BBQ, baseball and some beers!
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shoewizard
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad you can have this time with your son. Too bad the D backs are out of town right now.
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Phxchris1989
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, I'm not going to stick around here much, seeing as how I'm the only Republican on here (probably) but I will say one thing. People need to quit using "remember the troops" as political leverage. I've seen so called "leftards" say they love the troops, when they're only using troop deaths as another excuse to bash (Insert something in the Government here )

If you think I'm making this is up, I got it from a Marine when I lived in Jacksonville,NC. His words, not mine: "You say you support us, how about you report some of the victories we've had, how many terrorists we've killed, but instead, just all our deaths"


It sucks that this had to turn into politics, but I'm not surprised at all with such a democratic presence. I usually don't like talking politics as it always turns into a "My dick is bigger" contest, but I feel I had to say something.
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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phxchris1989 wrote:
Wow, I'm not going to stick around here much, seeing as how I'm the only Republican on here (probably) but I will say one thing. People need to quit using "remember the troops" as political leverage. I've seen so called "leftards" say they love the troops, when they're only using troop deaths as another excuse to bash (Insert something in the Government here )

If you think I'm making this is up, I got it from a Marine when I lived in Jacksonville,NC. His words, not mine: "You say you support us, how about you report some of the victories we've had, how many terrorists we've killed, but instead, just all our deaths"

It sucks that this had to turn into politics, but I'm not surprised at all with such a democratic presence. I usually don't like talking politics as it always turns into a "My dick is bigger" contest, but I feel I had to say something.


Being one of the chief leftys here ( Laughing ) i welcome you, and encourage you to voice your opinion. For the most part, this is pretty much the only place that i have seen where people attempt to respect others opinions when it comes to politics. THere are other "rightys" here, and one of which i consider to be a pretty close friend.

This thread was supposed to be about remembering those in the military, the price they pay, and how much we appreciate their sacrifice.


Last edited by qudjy1 on Mon May 26, 2008 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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