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Scottsdale Loop 101 Cameras to be activatedFeb 22
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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZ SnakePit wrote:
EvilJuan wrote:
Here's a link to a map display of the fixed-position units now operational in the state.

Oh, look, what a surprise. They're mostly on the busiest sections of highway - apparently no-one speeds dangerously on the 51 north of Bethany Home, it seems, and hardly anyone outside the loop 101.

They should accompany the flash of the camera with the sound of a cash-register ringing...


Yeah - they should put cameras up there too.

Yeah - that cash register ringing means the law is actually being enforced. Thats a good thing.
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AZ SnakePit
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qudjy1 wrote:
Yeah - that cash register ringing means the law is actually being enforced. Thats a good thing.

Sure: if, by 'being enforced', you mean that the perpetrators just write a check to the city, without suffering any other consequences at all. Must be some new definition of 'enforcement' I wasn't previously aware of...

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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZ SnakePit wrote:
qudjy1 wrote:
Yeah - that cash register ringing means the law is actually being enforced. Thats a good thing.

Sure: If, by 'being enforced', you mean that the perpetrators just write a check to the city, without suffering any other consequences at all. Must be some new definition of 'enforcement' I wasn't previously aware of...


You are right - the other consequences should apply as well.
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AZ SnakePit
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qudjy1 wrote:
You are right - the other consequences should apply as well.

And until they do, the cameras are indefensible as anything but a shallow cash-grab, despite all the protestations of 'safety is the primary concern.' If that genuinely were the case, they'd be on the most dangerous locations. where excess speed has proved to be the biggest threat. Instead, they are on the most heavily-trafficked sites, almost inevitably broad, flat and straight sections of road.
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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZ SnakePit wrote:
qudjy1 wrote:
You are right - the other consequences should apply as well.

And until they do, the cameras are indefensible as anything but a shallow cash-grab, despite all the protestations of 'safety is the primary concern.' If that genuinely were the case, they'd be on the most dangerous locations. where excess speed has proved to be the biggest threat. Instead, they are on the most heavily-trafficked sites, almost inevitably broad, flat and straight sections of road.


Hey, everything is a work in process - and frankly i agree. You have to go all the way - its either a law or it isnt. The half ass treatment of the tickets is unacceptable.

Im glad cameras and laws/processes that put teeth behind their use have your support.
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AZ SnakePit
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qudjy1 wrote:
Im glad cameras and laws/processes that put teeth behind their use have your support.

And I'm glad you've come around to my point of view that the current system is all about the money and should be scrapped.
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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZ SnakePit wrote:
qudjy1 wrote:
Im glad cameras and laws/processes that put teeth behind their use have your support.

And I'm glad you've come around to my point of view that the current system is all about the money and should be scrapped.


I never said the current system was perfect or even close, and it most certainly never said it should be scrapped. It should be improved, and built upon.
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deweyniner
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm all for scrapping it.


The ARS statute states "reasonable and prudent".

Cameras set to go off at a certain speed trigger can not determine reasonable and prudent.
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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deweyniner wrote:
I'm all for scrapping it.


The ARS statute states "reasonable and prudent".

Cameras set to go off at a certain speed trigger can not determine reasonable and prudent.


Right - all that is saying is that going lower than the speed limit is dictated by road conditions, etc, not saying its reasonable to go faster.
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AZ SnakePit
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qudjy1 wrote:
AZ SnakePit wrote:
qudjy1 wrote:
Im glad cameras and laws/processes that put teeth behind their use have your support.

And I'm glad you've come around to my point of view that the current system is all about the money and should be scrapped.


I never said the current system was perfect or even close, and it most certainly never said it should be scrapped. It should be improved, and built upon.

Any more that I said that cameras have my support.

An automatic process of law enforcement, where technology acts as policeman, judge and jury, is fundamentally flawed.
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B. O. N. D.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



I'm surprised it took this long. Rolling Eyes
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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZ SnakePit wrote:
judge and jury,


Huh?
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AZ SnakePit
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

B. O. N. D. wrote:
I'm surprised it took this long. Rolling Eyes

Or maybe closer [Robocop was at least partly human]:

And, of course, we all know how that ended...
[Hope the link works, I am surfing on Mrs. SnakePit's phone... Smile]
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B. O. N. D.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, after I posted Robocop, I realized I should have used ol' whats-his-name instead. Embarassed Laughing
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deweyniner
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some notes:

A committee of the Arizona state House of Representatives yesterday voted 5-2 to approve legislation banning the use of speed cameras on freeways. The House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee decided to act in response to a rising tide of public opposition to the largest single deployment of speed cameras ever attempted in the US. State lawmakers voted to reject the program despite the testimony of state police officials that the automated ticketing machines were improving safety on Arizona's highways.


Under Arizona law, motorists cannot be held responsible for an automated ticket that is sent in the mail. Instead, the citation must be hand-delivered by a process server who certifies that the recipient actually received the notice. ATS outsourced this function to E-Z Messenger Legal Support Providers and compensated the company with a bounty for each ticket successfully delivered. E-Z Messenger fired process server Michael Dimenstein after the Tucson Courts uncovered evidence that Dimenstein may have certified tickets as delivered to collect payment even when no attempt was ever made to contact the ticket recipient.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deweyniner wrote:
Some notes:

A committee of the Arizona state House of Representatives yesterday voted 5-2 to approve legislation banning the use of speed cameras on freeways. The House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee decided to act in response to a rising tide of public opposition to the largest single deployment of speed cameras ever attempted in the US. State lawmakers voted to reject the program despite the testimony of state police officials that the automated ticketing machines were improving safety on Arizona's highways.


Under Arizona law, motorists cannot be held responsible for an automated ticket that is sent in the mail. Instead, the citation must be hand-delivered by a process server who certifies that the recipient actually received the notice. ATS outsourced this function to E-Z Messenger Legal Support Providers and compensated the company with a bounty for each ticket successfully delivered. E-Z Messenger fired process server Michael Dimenstein after the Tucson Courts uncovered evidence that Dimenstein may have certified tickets as delivered to collect payment even when no attempt was ever made to contact the ticket recipient.

That sounds great and confirms what I was told last week. Is there a link for this?
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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAP wrote:
deweyniner wrote:
Some notes:

A committee of the Arizona state House of Representatives yesterday voted 5-2 to approve legislation banning the use of speed cameras on freeways. The House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee decided to act in response to a rising tide of public opposition to the largest single deployment of speed cameras ever attempted in the US. State lawmakers voted to reject the program despite the testimony of state police officials that the automated ticketing machines were improving safety on Arizona's highways.


Under Arizona law, motorists cannot be held responsible for an automated ticket that is sent in the mail. Instead, the citation must be hand-delivered by a process server who certifies that the recipient actually received the notice. ATS outsourced this function to E-Z Messenger Legal Support Providers and compensated the company with a bounty for each ticket successfully delivered. E-Z Messenger fired process server Michael Dimenstein after the Tucson Courts uncovered evidence that Dimenstein may have certified tickets as delivered to collect payment even when no attempt was ever made to contact the ticket recipient.

That sounds great and confirms what I was told last week. Is there a link for this?


This sucks.

Quote:
despite the testimony of state police officials that the automated ticketing machines were improving safety on Arizona's highways

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falsely ticketing numerous drivers that have no way to defend themselves while hoping the net effect reduces accidents is a classic example of the end justifying the means.
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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAP wrote:
Falsely ticketing numerous drivers that have no way to defend themselves while hoping the net effect reduces accidents is a classic example of the end justifying the means.


Who is falsely ticketed?

Who cant defend themselves?

Those are excuses...


So, now, everyone is happy, people will be going 80 on the 101 again... GREAT, Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qudjy1 wrote:
TAP wrote:
Falsely ticketing numerous drivers that have no way to defend themselves while hoping the net effect reduces accidents is a classic example of the end justifying the means.


Who is falsely ticketed?

Who cant defend themselves?

Those are excuses...

I distinctly remember a discussion providing detailed answers to those questions a page or two back. Wink
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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAP wrote:
qudjy1 wrote:
TAP wrote:
Falsely ticketing numerous drivers that have no way to defend themselves while hoping the net effect reduces accidents is a classic example of the end justifying the means.


Who is falsely ticketed?

Who cant defend themselves?

Those are excuses...

I distinctly remember a discussion providing detailed answers to those questions a page or two back. Wink


Theres been alot of stuff posted, but no "answers".

The real result of this, is people will just go back to going whatever speed they want, and the speeding law that actually had an impact of slowing traffic will get thrown out, because of whining.

Unfortunately, this is what it takes to make speed "cameras" more permanent in the future. I promise you, when the speed goes back up, and those highways become less safe again, the proponents of this will get the cameras back, and hopefully get some of the current undeniable administrative flaws fixed.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Educated drivers
2) Police officers patrolling the roads

Combined, that is a far better approach than willy-nilly photographing drivers.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qudjy1 wrote:
This sucks.

Quote:
despite the testimony of SOME state police officials that the automated ticketing machines were improving safety on Arizona's highways

I fixed it for you. Other Arizona police officially completely disagree.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qudjy1 wrote:
The real result of this, is people will just go back to going whatever speed they want, and the speeding law that actually had an impact of slowing traffic will get thrown out, because of whining.

Actually, the cameras do not enforce the "speeding law" as it's written. It does not include any reference to a fixed limit, but says instead, "greater than is reasonable and prudent speed under the conditions." I await your explanation of how speed cameras set at X mph can determine this. They're not enforcing the law, they're creating and applying completely new ones.
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qudjy1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAP wrote:
1) Educated drivers
2) Police officers patrolling the roads


Howd that work before the cameras. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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