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Pitch Counts

 
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THE SHADOW
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:15 pm    Post subject: Pitch Counts Reply with quote

Pretty good read on the subject.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=4359938&campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines
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deweyniner
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read that earlier today.

One theory is that players don't long toss like they used to.

This article: http://baseballtips.com/longtoss.html may seem old, but I think it is somewhat relevant.

Some organizations don't let their guys throw over 120 feet, which is absurd, because long toss is the best way to improve arm strength.

I was trying to look up pitch counts for no hitters, but I am not having much luck. Buehrle threw 116 pitches, Sanchez threw 110, as did Zambrano, those guys being the last three to throw a no-no.

These players now days aren't building up the arm strength that they used to, because their throwing program isn't any good.

An arm can handle over 100 pitches, if it's trained and built up properly.


Oooops, forgot to add, that the advent of the five man rotation doesn't help matters either.

These guys not only don't go over 100 pitches, they only go every fifth day.

Back when Saberhagen won his AL CYs, he was in a four man rotation, yet was downright filthy in September of those years.

I could go on and on, and it ticks me off to see this crap. Let them build the arms up...
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deweyniner
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a better article, IMO:

http://www.baseballtips.com/armsregressing.html


Which has my main point:

Note: Nolan Ryan has stated that he averaged 160-180 pitches in 1974, including a 235 pitch game against Luis Tiant, who threw 14 1/3 innings against him that night. Ryan pitched until he was 46...Tiant, until he was 41).
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azentropy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It again shows the 100 pitch count is just an arbitrary number - why 100? Because it is nice and round?

Pitch counts do not take into account pitching mechanics, pitchers build, conditioning, types of pitches they throw, pre-game routine, throwing program in between starts, the weather that day, and even simple genetics, fatigue at the time and on an on...

Basically they are a joke and I always cringe when I hear people say, "how could that manager let that pitcher throw 120 pitches?"

There are many reasons we see more arm problems today than we used to. Pitchers used to spend much more in the minors building arm strength and accumulating innings. Typically they would have more than 600+ innings under their belt (college + minors) before going to the majors. But the ones who did not have the "makeup" to accumulate that
many innings in the minors ended up having arm problems there and washed out - so they never made it to the majors. Now as they rush some pitchers through the system the have the arm problems more public.
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levski
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, let's use Nolan Ryan to make an argument... Rolling Eyes
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deweyniner
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

azentropy wrote:
Basically they are a joke and I always cringe when I hear people say, "how could that manager let that pitcher throw 120 pitches?"



Agree completely. Any pitcher who can't go 120 doesn't deserve to be a major league pitcher.

Lev, using Ryan isn't the greatest arguement, as he was a freak of nature, but I am pretty sure most AL pitchers in those days went until they were no longer effective, not at any arbitrary pitch count.

Checking All-Time leaders in complete games, you have to go all the way to #39 to get to a pitcher who pitched into the 80s, and that's Gaylord Perry, who is also the first pitcher on the All-Time CG list to have his CG total less than half of his start total.

The conventional wisdom is that you save arms by throwing them less, when in all actuality, you help the arms by throwing them more. Period.

Another 'rule of thumb' is the 15-pitch inning, which if you go by that, no pitcher should go past 6, and a complete game would be 135, which IS NOT an unreasonable pitch count on a well conditioned arm.
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Oden
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah... throwing a baseball is a violent, unnatural motion. Condition all you want, but nearly all of them are going to hurt their arm at one time or another. There are freak of nature exceptions that prove the rule, but it's not a smart motion to repeat over and over and over again (unless someone gives you millions of dollars to do it.)
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levski
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dewey, entropy, did you even read the #### article?
And didn't Hershiser's comments make any sense to you?
If not, I'm re-posting them here for your enjoyment

Quote:
The past 15 years have represented perhaps the greatest offensive era in history. The reasons include smaller ballparks, a strike zone the size of a license plate, improved bat technology, steroids, weightlifting and harder baseballs. The 1999-2000 seasons were the apex of the offensive explosion: In 1999, more teams scored 20 runs in a game (nine) than in the decade of the 1960s combined (six).

The game is different now than it was even 25 years ago. The Blue Jays' double-play combination, shortstop Marco Scutaro and second baseman Aaron Hill, has homered in the same game three times this season; it had never happened in the first 32 years of the franchise. So perhaps the explanation is as simple as this: Pitchers were hit so hard and so often in 2000, they were taken out of games long before they got to 120 pitches.

"Since 1968, I believe the intensity of every pitch has gotten harder and harder in the big leagues," said Orel Hershiser, the National League Cy Young Award winner in 1988. "In 1968, guys threw over the top, the ball went downhill and became a moving fastball. When they lowered the mound in 1969, they took away the pitcher's leverage. They took away the plane of the baseball, and a straight pitch became more on the plane of the bat. At that point, pitchers had to move the ball so it was not on the plane of the bat, and to do that, they had to increase the intensity on every pitch. Movement became a key, not just velocity. So with all the elements we have today, if the intensity of one pitch is increased by, say, 10 percent, then 125 pitches becomes 115, which becomes 110, then becomes 100."

Hershiser said the strike zone "now is the smallest it has ever been. When we lost the height on the strike zone, we added some width, but then there was a trend to cut down on violence in sports -- in hockey, the third man in -- in the early 1980s, and with the new rules in baseball, we lost the inside corner. So you pitch in, hit a batter, and a fight starts."

Hershiser made his major league debut in 1983. "I could rest at certain times during the game: two outs, no one on, seventh hitter up in the National League," he said. "I didn't want to show all my bullets at that time, so I'd throw a BP sinker away and get a ground out. If the guy got a hit, no big deal; you had the eighth and ninth hitters up. But you can't do that today with these lineups. You can't throw only 80 percent of what you have. You can't get by with a get-me-over curveball. What used to not be a big deal is now a huge deal."

High-intensity pitches are often high-stress pitches. Teams all across the major leagues don't just count pitches; they count the number of pitches a pitcher makes under duress.


It's really not rocket science. It's right there, in plain words.

And while you're at it, read this article too

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33402
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sb24ws2005
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Related to pitch counts, this article talks about the problem with not letting pitchers throw more even between starts. I completely agree with Jaeger's regimen: pitchers need to strengthen their arms.

Old School Regimen for Pitchers

Haren is one of his pupils.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sb24ws2005 wrote:
Related to pitch counts, this article talks about the problem with not letting pitchers throw more even between starts. I completely agree with Jaeger's regimen: pitchers need to strengthen their arms.

Old School Regimen for Pitchers

Haren is one of his pupils.


I think the Diamondbacks should bring Jaeger in as a consultant.
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matt
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EvilJuan wrote:
sb24ws2005 wrote:
Related to pitch counts, this article talks about the problem with not letting pitchers throw more even between starts. I completely agree with Jaeger's regimen: pitchers need to strengthen their arms.

Old School Regimen for Pitchers

Haren is one of his pupils.


I think the Diamondbacks should bring Jaeger in as a consultant.


I don't think getting drunk will help our pitchers but it might make some of the games more enjoyable.
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deweyniner
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

levski wrote:
And didn't Hershiser's comments make any sense to you?



Hershiser's comments make some sense, as to in-game strategy, but not for building arm strength. So why does Jaeger also subscribe to the long-toss philosophy?

Pitcher's arms, if conditioned properly, can take more than 100 pitches, easily.

There hasn't been a 300 IP/season pitcher since 1980. 28 seasons.
The last 290 IP/season was 1985.
Last 280 IP season was 1986.
Last 270 IP season was 1999.
Last 260 IP season was 2003, and nobody's hit 250 since 2004.

Now, some of this has to do with the 5-man rotation vs the 4-man, as a 4-man rotation averages 40.5 starts per season, and a 5-man averages 32.5. However, Steve Carlton (last guy to throw 300 IP/season) was in a 4-man rotation in 1980, and made 38 starts, averaged 8 IP per start (no relief appearances). The 2008 IP leader, Roy Halladay, made 33 starts, and one relief appearance, averaged 7.4. Give Halladay the 5 more starts, he still only gets to 281 IP. Give Halladay the 41 starts, he gets to 302. For some reason, I think Halladay is more than capable of a 300 IP season.

Taking a pitcher out after 5/6 innings just because he hit 100 pitches is idiocy.

As with any strength building activity, pushing the limits increases that strength/activity.

Just like you can't get a 300 lb bench press by doing 10 push ups per day. Unless you're Shaq, or some other 300 lb dude.
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TAP
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keeping Score: 149 Pitches? Once Shouldn’t Hurt.
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NJ-DBACKS-FAN
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAP wrote:
Keeping Score: 149 Pitches? Once Shouldn’t Hurt.


with his sal going up to 8 million and change in 2011, im sure that will be something for his 5th team by the age of 27 Shocked to worry about
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